Sunday, August 17, 2008

Test Case Times Two

As annoyed and angered as I am about Moetzet YESHA's agreement with the government about the fate of Migron, I do see their "trick." I guess that's how they sold it to the council delegates to get that unanimous vote.

According to the JPost, the government has to do two crucial things:
  1. give approval to a new site
  2. build permanent housing

At this time, neither seems realistic. Even "consensus" towns in Judea/Samaria like Maale Adumim are being strangled by the lack of land for building new homes. And Jerusalem neighborhoods like Har Chomah and Pisgat Zeev have trouble getting building permits.

So what are the chances that the government will approve and build a "new Migron" near to the area where Migron stands today?

Regardless, I think that Moetzet YESHA should never have agreed to destroy a Jewish community!

12 comments:

YMedad said...

As far as I can tell, they aren't destroying but simply moving a community which is entirely, except for two structures, made up of caravans. I don't think there are vineyards there and I do know that the neighboring Givat Assaf do not like what Migron has done to the view in chopping down and cutting up a beautiful hill.

Based on the fact that if the government wants to really destroy Migron and send all its inhabitants into exile, and beat up kids, that they can and will do that and that no substitute community will be set up officially, the choice is cruel but unavoidable.

As the saying goes: sometimes one needs be smart and not solely just. I think that if the deal goes through, and of course, one can say the gov't will renege (but it can do that with everything) even if it has committed itself to the Court, then maybe that has a very special Eretz-Yisrael value that should be grabbed.

Is the object simply to build up Eretz-Yisrael or to securely and firmly build up Eretz-Yisrael with government approval as much as possible?

Hadassa DeYoung said...

Shalom!
The YESHA Council is once again voluntarily being a pawn of the government. Haven't we learned our lesson about relocating settlements from what happened in Hevron? In BeSheva a few weeks ago Dr. Aryeh Yitzhaki K'far Yam/Efrata wrote a very good rebuttal to Hagai Huberman's "Compromise is Not a Dirty Word". The relatively innocent days of Sebastia are long gone. We cannot afford to give the government the idea that we will relinquish even one patch of dirt in YESHA without a fight that will make Amona look like a sandbox scuffle.
And Yisrael, don't you think that it's interesting that the entire YESHA Council is in favor of relocating Migron, the overwhelming majority of the local Council of Binyamin is opposed to it and ALL of Migron is opposed to it? For a more detailed look please read Emmanuel Shiloh's article in the latest Hebrew issue of BeSheva.
Hadassa

Batya said...

y, semantics, really? When the Nazis transferred Jews to ghettos, they didn't kill them, so that's ok? Disengagement was a transfer, so that's ok?
Were you ever in Migron? People have planted, just like here. And if those in Givat Asaf don't like the building on the Migron hill, so they should expect to be next.
I guess you like the new security of Kever Rachel.

Hadassa, thanks!

YMedad said...

Before replying to Uri, I must mention that I find any linking of Nazis or Nazism to anything in connection with this or similar issues quite abhorrent. When Nazis transferred Jews to ghettos, they also had plans to starve them, cause them to become diseased, to work them to death and to kill them. One may feel that any actions by this or that government that could place a Jew in danger is a Nazi act but then that would be, in my humble opinion, not only radical but irrational and psychotic. An argument about Eretz-Yisrael that some people must be conducted within the framework reference of Nazis and Holocaust, of Goyim vs. Jews, is not an argument but a pushed-to-the-extreme desperate act. There are poeple who already have termed the Yesha Council a Judenrat. Next, will I be a kapo?

Uri,

a) if there were any possible "crimes" commited in connection to Migron, maybe the millions of shkalim squandered by the Binyamin Council to the detriment of other also worthy projects might be a reason. It could also be that the Yesha Council members are either more experienced, more savvy and have a better perspective of things. Having been a member of the Binyamin Council in three separate terms of office, I can attest that that just might be the case (but, note, I consider myself somewhere in the middle level).

b) You mention Sebastia. Gee, I don't know if I cannot say that the "innocent Sebastia days are gone". I do know that at that time, there were no communities north of Jerusalem. Not one single Jew. And Elon Moreh had to "transfer" twice. They fought, they demonstrated, they were in the courts. And when it didn't help, they started all over again at a different site which has grown and which led to other hilltop communities being created. Is that process gone? Or are some people to impatient? Or are some people in it only for the "ride" (btw, Aryeh Yitzchaki's rooftop stand-off was considered perhaps a collaborationist act and he was suspected of Shabak ties. Sometimes too extreme is just too bad).

c) you didn't respond to my questions of logic: at the end of the day, do you want to be remembered for struggling or for establsihing yet another community in Erezt-Yisrael, even it is a substitute for one that you were forced to abandon, temporarily? And, another: do you think that you will be getting more people to vote for right-of-center parties that will assure abetter government next time with these actions?

Hadassa DeYoung said...

Shalom!
Uri wasn't writing. I, his wife Hadassa, was. It's just that his name is on the address. The oh so very experienced YESHA Council totally botched the struggle for Gush Katif and the northern Shomron, sometimes intentionally, so you can see why claiming that they have experience is going to be totally lost on me any one with a brain in his/her head. BTW, I lived in Gush Katif for 14 years, two in Netzer Hazani and 12 in K'far Darom. Mateh Gush Katif was sold down the river by the YESHA Council. And the way the Palm Beach Hotel was given over to the IDF was nothing other than disgusting. Dr. Emmanuel Shiloh and Dr. Aryeh Yitzhaki have both refuted, in print, much better than I can any claims that relocating Migron is similar to the relocation of Elon Moreh or any other settlement today. Whether or not they have ties with the Shabak is irrelevant in this case. They present their cases with known facts and clear logic.
If the YESHA Council doesn't want to waste money protecting settlements, they should pack up and go home. How much money did they waste sending or assisting 60,000 to bake in the sun for three days in K'far Maimon when they had no intention of leading them to Gush Katif? How much time and effort did they waste crushing any serious resistance to the expulsion?
I want to be remembered for truly following "not one inch," not for substituting one inch for another inch.
Hadassa DeYoung, K'far Darom/Elon Moreh

Hadassa DeYoung said...

Shalom!
And now for the Nazi references:
The father of one of my neighbors from K'far Darom, whose parents are both Holocaust survivors, said that he doesn't like to make comparisons to the Holocaust but the last time that so many synagogues were destroyed at one time was Kristalnacht. (OK, so the Arabs were the ones with torches and sledgehammers but everyone knew it would happen, despite the "Holy Place" signs in English and Arabic.) Personally the first thing that I thought of when I looked out of my window and saw the thousands of soldiers, most wearing black uniforms, forming circles around the synagogue of K'far Darom was how much they look like Nazi storm troopers.
However, even when Nazi comparisons are accurate, we should not use them in formal debates (not "conversations" on blogs) because the only hurt our arguments.
The Israeli government while not wanting to kill us, very much wants to neutralize us. Three years later and there have been very few building starts. Most people probably aren't aware that the government planned settlements in Lachish years ago but there were no takers. Anyone other than GK expellees would have been welcomed with open arms.
Many of the expellees are walking around half dead, especially the farmers who don't have any other work skills and have been deprived plots of land by the government. Rates of cancer have increased greatly as have other illnesses. Just like after Yamit. If you'd like to continue this discussion privately, Batya has my e-address.
Hadassa

Hadassa DeYoung said...

Shalom!
Sorry, to post again so soon but I forgot to answer the inquiry about the political parties. I think that compromising ideals in order to gain votes is counterproductive. We should make nice-nice and find favor in the eyes of people who will vote parties that don't truly represent the interests of the residents of YOSH? I don't follow that logic.
We should remember that the merger of the NRP and the NU lost votes. Why? The NRP voters didn't want to vote for the NU radicals and the NU voters didn't want to vote for the NRP sell-outs.
Hadassa

Batya said...

Hadassa, you're 100% right.

y, using historical comparisan is legit when it's accurate. Yes, the truth can hurt.

YMedad said...

It is NOT true that I can be compared to a Nazi nor is it legit. Historical comparisons are never 100% correct unlike some people's opinions, and therefore, this'll be my last comment at this blog.

Batya said...

The nazi comparisan is the movement of Jews to ghettos, reducing the number of Jewish communities, so everyone can live together.
That is the Olmert plan, concentrate the Jewish presence. When I hear that my mind associates to Jewish history in Nazi Germany.

Hadassa DeYoung said...

Shalom!
Yisrael, do you have quitting habits like Tzvi Fishman? We'll be seeing you later, I'm sure.
And for the record, do you really think that the current government will allow Migron to be recognized anywhere in YOSH? Let's do the right thing and whatever G-d wants will happen.
Hadassa

Anonymous said...

Meeting Thursday two weeks. At the hill South of the place. Bring friends you can trust to keep quiet. We need about ten to make this a success.