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Friday, August 28, 2009

What Wasted Votes!

I feel like a broken record, repeating time after time, that most people who voted for Likud had wasted their votes. They trusted that Bibi's "Center" campaign would get him in power to give us Right wing pro-Jews in the Land of Israel policies. Instead, as I suspected and blogged, he is using his power to give us Labor-Kadima and Loony-Left policies.

Sorry, chevra, but you've been had! Don't kvetch now about not liking Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's policies. Do something.

Leave the Likud en masse and join the National Union, and that especially includes Likud MK's who, along with Moshe Feiglin's Manhigut Yehudit, are the guiltiest of this con. They gave the Likud a "Mehadrin Hechsher--strictest approval" that a vote for Likud would ensure a strong and Jewish Israel, protecting Jewish Rights in our HolyLand.

Things will not get better within the Likud and we don't have time for Feiglin's plea for "patience."

Shabbat Shalom u'Mevorah
May you have a peaceful and blessed Sabbath

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

Great idea to leave the Likud. But...on condition that Feiglin stays. His poor judgement and self agrandisment do not belong in the Ichud Leumi. He's done enough damage.

RebRafiFarber said...

Say everyone does that. Then NU will strengthen to what, 6 or 7 seats instead of four. Meanwhile, the Likud will be abandoned of all its true nationalist internal voters, all will be leftists like Bibi, and your home in Shilo will be destroyed. You are rooting for your own destruction. Think about what you are saying.

Hotoveli, Levine, Danon, Kara, and Ya'alon are openly challenging Bibi, relying on Feiglin's backing with his Mitpakdim, and still you do not listen. Hundreds of nationalist voters have joined Likud in the past few days following Feiglin's meeting with Ya'alon and still you do not listen. A new initiative has now begun to get nationalists to join Likud en masse at www.haleumi.org, and still you do not listen.

I have a theoretical question Muse, and I hope you can answer it. At what point, theoretically speaking, will you accede that joining the Likud party is actually succeeding? Will you accede to this if and when Feiglin becomes prime minister?

When will it be? If he actually leads Likud, would you even vote for Likud, or do you despise Likud so much that you will vote Ichud Leumi anyway?

I suspect it's the second one. And I'm willing to bet you'll answer the question by saying, "He will never lead Likud, so it doesn't matter."

That's not an answer to a theoretical question, so don't bother writing that.

Batya said...

a, good angle!

Reb Rafi, you just don't get it. You are ignoring the news, the power Bibi has due to your support, due to Feiglin and all thos who voted for him. By calling NU marginal, you've made it marginal. The majority of Likud supporters really agree more with the NU than they do with Bibi's policies.

No Israeli political party has done more to destroy Jewish control/settlement of Eretz Yisrael than the Likud under Begin, Sharon and Bibi. I'm in Israel since 1970 and in Shiloh since 1981. I speak from experience.

RebRafiFarber said...

You can say a lot of things about what I ignore, but the news is definitely not one of them.

If you want to join Ichud Leumi, I will give you a link. Here:

http://haleumi.org/121733/לאיחוד-הלאומי

You may now notice that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "JOINING" ICHUD LEUMI BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO SUCH THING AS PARTY MEMBERSHIP.

I am aware that most of likud VOTERS are against Likud's policies. It's a really, REALLY big shame that 70% of Likud MEMBERS are NOT, because people like you prefer to stay on the sidelines since you feel insulted by Likud and don't want to sign a form and vote in internal elections. Muse - I know you vote in internal elections. You must encourage others to do so as well.

I am aware that Likud has caused the most damage. That is because they have the most POWER. I want that power. I want to use it. That's why I am a member of a political party, and that's why my vote counts way more than yours, who, I'm guessing is a member of a political nothing.

Read my article here

Here, Batya, is the question: We each have two hands. One can grab a political party. The other can vote in general elections. Do we want to let our right hand wither as we only use our left hand to vote in general elections? Or do we want to use all our strength and join the party, fill out a form, and vote?

You can let your right go limp if you want. But I've said this before: If Likud destroys Yehuda and Shomron as it did Gush Katif, the fault will be your own for not filling out that form.

You can register online at haleumi.org.

If you also vote in internal elections, then make that clear in the future.

Batya said...

Reb Rafi, I've been voting in internal Likud elections since Tzachi's father ran them, before it was called Likud. They were farcial then and it's no better now.
but I haven't voted Likud since the 1970's. Actually, maybe just once in national elections, 1974, since we were in London in 1977.
Have you replaced shy guy in representing Feiglin in my comments?

RebRafiFarber said...

I am generally a shy guy, though I haven't replaced anyone. I don't know who you're referring to.

It's good that you vote in internal elections, and as I said to muse, in an earlier post, I have no claims against anyone who votes for NU if they are members of the Likud party.

I don't represent Feiglin. I only represent myself.

One more thing - you say you speak from experience. I say you speak from despair.

You can say internal likud elections are a farce as much as you want, cite Feiglin's bump and complain. But that approach really, really reminds me of the sin of the spies, who we are like grasshoppers in the face of the giant likud empire.

עלו נעלה וירשנו אותה, כי יכול נוכל לה.

If we all despair from pulling the likud in the right direction, you may as well evacuate your house now, because in the end it will be destroyed anyway.

But lucky for you, we are here fighting for you, whether you appreciate it or not.

I hope to see you at Feiglin's victory party in a few years. I'll be the one that looks like Tobey MacGuire. I won't give you any "I told you so"s. Just a smile.

Shy Guy said...

Batya, you'll just never get it. And the left is laughing.

Toda, Reb Rafi.

Batya said...

Shy, Rafi, I see no holiness in the Likud, no reason to preserve it. It's corrupt and should be allowed to fade away.

Incorrigible said...

i do not understand. do u want to be a part of some minor leagues who want to strut in the knesset or do u want to change the land of israel.

by joining likud you are fighting a real fight for the hearts and minds in the leadership of israel.

if u want to jump at your own parties then join the NU but u will never be a real alternative to the present political reality today.

the truth is some people live in a deluded irrelevant world and best is to ignore them and let the actions speak for themselves

and the people who joined NU joined it. now what? they have done nothing they are powerless. and you ask if only the had a extra seat they would change the face of governance and spirit of how eretz yisroel is represented

you are all weak from shying from the real fight that is for the hearts and minds of every single likud member that represents the broad electorate of israel

Keli Ata said...

From the uninformed perspective of an American who hates politics--vote Bibi out of office before the next US presidential elections in 2012. Barack Obama is chomping at the bit to carve Jerusalem like a Thanksgiving Day turkey.

IF he manages to get Bibi in his pocket Obama will get his wish. I just don't think Bibi is strong enough to resist Obama for long.

As for leaving Likud to join another party or fledgling party, well, reform has to start somewhere. If enough people flee Likud there could be enough momentum to really make changes.

Who knows? Maybe all of Israel will be holding up "Dewey Wins" signs after Likud is defeated and a pro-Israel party beats the odds and wins.

muse said...

Incorrigible, your (and Shy's and Reb Rafi's) faith in the Likud reminds me of a person who starts eating an apple, finds the first bite rotten, but keeps eating it, convinced that it's really such a good apple because it looked great before being bitten.

That apple is rotten. It's all like the first bite. Get another apple!

Keli, good point.

RebRafiFarber said...

Muse - I know Likud is a rotten apple. It is the most dangerous party on the political scene, because only the Likud will have the power to direct the wrecking ball right at your house in Shiloh and smash it to pieces, give you a few bucks and watch you and your family rot like the apple that Likud is.

Here's another analogy for you. There's a giant political wrecking ball. It is called the Likud. In the driving seat of this wrecking ball is a man named Bibi. Now, there are two opposition teams - us, in the back seat of the wrecking ball, swiping and tearing and clawing at the driver, whacking him over the head with votes for a more right wing engine, and now his engine, the MK's, are annoying him. Thanks to us. We're also ready for when the engine of the wrecking ball stalls to throw him out of the drivers seat in the next Likud elections.

And then there's you. You've decided to picket with signs in front of your house and bolt your door with a two by four. Giant wrecking balls don't really care about this nonsense.

So join us in calling people to give us the strength we need by getting in the seat of the wrecking ball and swiping at Bibi until he starts to seriously bleed. When the engine stalls, we'll be ready to start it up with a new driver who will turn it around and POINT IT AT RAMALLAH.

Or you can continue picketing in front of your house while the wrecking ball gets closer and closer to Shiloh.

Get your readers to join the Likud, even if they vote for NU. Make the difference CLEAR to them. For the sake of your own homes.

Batya said...

I've known the Likud since it was Herut. They function best in the opposition, "lean and mean." In power they are dangerous disasters for the country. That's the bottom line.
Your ideas are great in theory, but they are theories, not reality. I'm a pragmatist.

Shy Guy said...

If enough people flee Likud there could be enough momentum to really make changes.
-------------------------------

No. You will have fragmented 70% of today's Likud membership into various useless parties, who will all fight for scraps on the table, as small and useless parties have been doing in Israel for 60 years.

Instead, you can easily add another 100,000 voters to the Likud membership and elect a loyal Jewish prime minister overnight.

Oops. I made a mistake. It's not easy when Jews have a short term memory of the uselessness of religious parties and can't invest in strategy.

And so we continue to lose.
===============================

Incorrigible, your (and Shy's and Reb Rafi's) faith in the Likud reminds me of a person who starts eating an apple, finds the first bite rotten, but keeps eating it, convinced that it's really such a good apple because it looked great before being bitten.

That apple is rotten. It's all like the first bite. Get another apple!

-------------------------------


No. It reminds me of what Chazal say you should do when one finds a fly floating on the top of a perfectly good cup of wine.

It's called Ba'al Tashcheit.

muse said...

Shy, I think only we Jews could be so crazy. Considering that we agree on all the big policy issues, but still we can't agree on the way to achieve them.

Ben-David said...

Batya:
I've known the Likud since it was Herut. They function best in the opposition, "lean and mean." In power they are dangerous disasters for the country.
- - - - - - - - -
OK - so who should be in power?

And please pick a group with a REALISTIC chance of forming a coalition....

Take your time.... I'll wait....

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Could someone demonstrate even one situation in which Likud did more for Israel in the coalition than in the opposition? Could someone give the last instance in which the Likud was good for Israel? Yes, Reb Rafi, "Hotoveli, Levine, Danon, Kara, and Ya'alon are openly challenging Bibi" and will get nowhere in the Likud, as Feiglin has gotten nowhere in the Likud. "...all will be leftists like Bibi, and your home in Shilo will be destroyed" I've got news for you Reb Rafi, the Likud in the hands of politicians considered right-wingers destroyed Yamit, Gush Katif, the Northern Shomron and more than a few outposts.
Is it better to be part of a large, powerful political party that is bad for Israel or part of a small party that is good for Israel?
I would like to remind all of you that Sharon not only ignored the platform on which he was elected PM, but also ignored an internal party referendum concerning the expulsion from Gush Katif and the Northern Shomron.
I am a member of MY and I have voted in the past few internal elections.

muse said...

Ben David. If the doubters would keep quiet and the Tzippi Hotobellis would join NU, we could do it. The chances were less that we'd survive the 6 Days War.

Hadassa, thanks! It's good to have you on my team.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Are we alone? Believe me I'm used to being on the smaller team.

muse said...

Alone? We have each other, like Yehoshua and Caleb! In Jewish History, the majority is usually wrong.

Ben-David said...

muse:
If the doubters would keep quiet and the Tzippi Hotobellis would join NU
- - - - - - - -
...you'd have 10 to 12 seats.

Game Over!

... they say Cervantes was a Marrano. After reading posts like this, I believe it...

muse said...

Believe me, trusting the Likud considering their history...
It's throwing good votes after rotten leaders.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Ben-David (or anyone else) I'm not very familiar with Cervantes (I'm close to fluent in French), could you explain your comment?
Thanks

Ben-David said...

Muse: I'll "believe you" when you show me the numbers for an alternative.

Until then, you've punted - and as many Meretzniks will tell you, punting against reality doesn't usually work.

Yes, Meretzniks - because like you they spun away from reality and nurtured an elitist sense of their own righteousness.

Hadassah:
Cervantes=Don Quixote=tilting at windmills.

If it's still not clear, may I suggest Google?

muse said...

Ben David, Where's your proof that Moshe "Don Quixote" Feigin's plan would ever work? Your faith in him is misplaced.

Actually, I like the musical the best. The songs are running through my head. Hail Knight of the Woeful Countenance!" Your dream is more impossible than mine.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Ben-David: got it!
Thanks.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Another question:
How has Feiglin not been tilting at windmills?
So Bibi's a bit nervous now, has that accomplished anything "on the ground"?

Rebrafifarber said...

GUYS! EVERYBODY QUIET FOR ONE SECOND!

HOLD ON!

LISTEN!

Muse - you said it's a shame, we have the same policies but can't agree on how to achieve them.

LISTEN TO ME: This is NOT a question of choosing which way to go! This is actually a really simple case of YOU CAN HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT, TOO!

Muse, Batya, all you guys, everyone. Forget about who's right and who's wrong! Forget about whether Feiglin is succeeding or not! Forget it all!

We can fight both ways and hedge our bets! Vote for NU if you really think it is the answer! And join Likud ANYWAY!

If you don't, you know who will? People who want money and political promises and jobs and don't give a damn about the land of Israel.

So please, please...PLEASE! Have it your way! But do it OUR way TOO! Just sign up now! Just click the link right now, 30 seconds!

That's all! You can still vote for whoever the heck you want!

We can't agree, but the beauty is that WE DON'T HAVE TO. We just have to work together!

muse said...

I've been in this situation (most probably) since before before Feiglin was old enough to vote. I used to vote for T'chiya.

Rebrafifarber said...

GOOD! Now get on it and tell all your readers to be exactly where you are now!

Time is absolutely of the essence. The bulldozers are headed over right now. They're whispering. We must unite and tell everyone to join the party and, until Feiglin or someone loyal to the land of Israel with faith in God takes over, to vote however you want.

It's so important I can't even say it anymore. I'll just end with one word. Please.

Ben-David said...

Muse:
Ben David, Where's your proof that Moshe "Don Quixote" Feigin's plan would ever work? Your faith in him is misplaced.
- - - - - - - -
Why do you assume I am a Feiglinite?

There were many religious/traditional Likudniks long before Feiglin came along.

I am a pragmatic religious voter who has gotten over myself, and is looking to cultivate the alliances that need to be cultivated.

My motivation to forge these alliances is not just political, but spiritual - I don't want to abandon the rest of Am Yisrael to creeping assimilation.

I don't know how long you've lived here - but talk to some old-timers.

"National Religious" used to be a much larger tent - stretching from Rav Kook's impeccable Haredi credentials to the Kibbutz Ha-dati movement.

There has been a dangerous - and to me, distasteful - withdrawal into self-righteous elitism.

Which paradoxically mirrors the self-absorption of the Left.

Your impractical vote for a small-but-pure party lets you beat your breast - but it does not accomplish one iota of the work that needs to be done right now in Am Yisrael.

muse said...

The LIkud is driving those bulldozers. Bibi gave full power to Barak to shut the opposition up.

Neither Tzippi h nor Ruby nor.... anybody has any influence there to stop the Bibi-Barak anti-Eretz Yisrael faction.

Ben-David said...

The Likud is driving those bulldozers. Bibi gave full power to Barak to shut the opposition up.
- - - - - - - - - - -
Who is being shut up?
The Ynet editorial page - even the Ha'aretz editorial page - regularly criticizes the Obama government's approach, and as backed Bibi's hard line on Jerusalem.

Sharon "bulldozed" the Likud faction that is now in power. Attempts to conflate the two say more about you than they do about reality in the Likud.

Bibi's handling of the West Bank reflects need to preserve increasingly rare goodwill in Dem-controlled Washington.

It's not pleasant to watch - and far less satisfying than self-righteously snubbing one's nose at the world - but it's the careful approach of a leader who looks ahead - and sees Iran on the horizon.

It's exactly the kind of pragmatic, strategic hedging that real leaders of a country must engage in - more often than righteous ranting.

Which is why NU - despite being full to the brim with prophets and experts! - has the number of seats it does, while Bibi made a coalition.

Which brings us back to my point - which you sidestepped by slogan-slinging:

I want to influence policy.
I want to strengthen the traditional, still Torah-loyal Jewish population.

The only way to do that is through the Likud.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Ben-David what is MY doing:
"to influence policy," as you say you want to"? What is the Likud doing to influence governmental policy in a good way?
What is the Likud doing and likely to do to "strengthen the traditional, still Torah-loyal Jewish population," as you want to?
The Likud hasn't been good for the Jews in decades.

Ben-David said...

Hadassah:
I'm not a Feiglinite.

I'm one of many religious/traditional Likudniks who are not Feiglinites.

My point is that the Likud has more influence on what really happens than the National Union or its doppelganger.

Looping back to badmouth MY doesn't change that.