Posted by Jewish IsraelAnne Ayalon, Rabbi Riskin and a host of other Jewish Israeli luminaries, have gone public - via an internet site - with plans for the establishment of a five-star resort, “celebrating” the Christian faith. The Galilean resort is being built on prime real estate on the shores of the Sea of Galilee - in the “cradle of Christianity”, and is being heralded as “an historic opportunity to establish the world Christian spiritual center at the very birthplace of Christianity.” The project enjoys a staggering Jewish-Christian list of endorsements . Everyone from Orthodox rabbis and Torah observant academics and entrepreneurs, to notorious mega-preachers and missionaries (including a famous advocate for Jews for Jesus), have jumped on this Jesus boat...more
22 comments:
What is wrong with these people? I just don't get it. How could ANY orthodox person in their right mind possibly endorse this in the Holy Land? If they (not the Jews, the Xtians) want to open centers all over the world, thats up to them, but for us to endorse it here?
It's as if we have totally forgotten our obligations and who we are and where we are standing.
Just wait for part 2, when we review some of the missionary personalities on the list.
The first thing you see when you look at a picture of Jerusalem is a mosque...get a grip! Guess who's really coming to dinner...?
Jewish spirtual and physical survival requires peripheral vision and a need to "watch our backsides". Those who are singularly focused on a mosque are missing a far bigger and more dangerous picture.
J.S. Kern, we have got to watch our sixes from people like yourself.
For the rest of us: notice Kern's use of an ixthus fish avatar:
Definition of "ixthus"
If you click on Kern's name and go to his Blogger profile page, you'll see he has nothing better to quote than NT verse John 14:16, in the original Greek. Here's the KJV translation:
"jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the father, but by me."
Which only proves our point in the first place. Thanks for that, J.S.!
Just to add, J.S. Kern seems to be a messy-anic christian. Have a look at his blog.
Peek-a-boo! You're no Jew!
ellen--G_d is with you, who can be against you? Your spiritual and physical survival as a people is assured! My comment was about the more immediate existential threat posed by those who don't believe Israel is the Promised Land.
Shy Guy--See above; G_d is bigger than a hundred billion people like me who believe Yeshua is Moshiach.
And, no, I'm not a Jew, but my Redeemer is. You might not like the idea--it might seem pathetic and messy--but in a very short time, the only non-Jews on this entire planet you'll be able to trust will be crusty old Jew-lovers like me & the missus.
Shalom in Y'shua from G_dzone.
J.S., that's just plain silly. When we deserve it, Hashem sends plenty of forces against us. That is our history.
The vacuum of our spiritual slackness is fill with much nonsense, from secularism to Jews believing in anything else, including your dead Jew on a stick, who you imagine can redeem you.
(Please note that I have no reason to assume that a historical character known to you as jesus ever actually existed).
Your final comment about whom we have to trust in is false, as per the spiritual aspirations of your coreligionists against our people.
The only ones Jews should be trusting in is Hashem. After that and with enough Torah knowledge and historic guidance under our belts, we'll be more accurate in assessing whom we can and cannot trust.
Shy Guy—Leaving aside the historical Jew on a stick that you have no reason to assume ever actually existed for the moment, what part of “G_d is with you, who can be against you? Your spiritual and physical survival as a people is assured!” is silly?
I agree wholeheartedly with both of your assertions: 1) When [you] deserve it, Hashem sends plenty of forces against [you]; And 2) The only one Jews should be trusting in is Hashem.
Sounds to me like we said the same thing, except you didn’t bring your assertions to a conclusion: that HaShem always saves you from complete destruction at the hands of those enemies, in order to give you another chance to turn to Him fully (then punishes those enemies for doing to you what He allowed their unbelief to drive them to do [hard to shrink that one down to parenthetical size; can explain if required]).
As for the trusting part, I was clearly referring to the field of human relations—we all trust people to some degree in this life…or, well, most of us do…and I was just bringing the discussion back to the thread topic and my original point; which is that the Jewish people have physical enemies who pose a more immediate threat to your lives than those who believe that Moschiach was that (possibly never even existed) Dead Jew on a Stick®.
As for “the spiritual aspirations of [my] coreligionists against [your] people”, I can only say I understand your paranoia, but would (gently) request that you not include me in anything that you consider “against your people”.
I consider myself a Gentile believer in Hashem, the G_d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob; I have no “spiritual aspirations” beyond finding favour in His eyes and being found worthy to enter His Kingdom on the Day of Judgement. I know that He will redeem His people, the Jews, by Himself; you don’t need anything from me.
However, that being said, I believe those enemies I mentioned will shortly be in political control of every nation on Earth (except Israel?). When that time comes, those in the Diaspora will once again require immediate assistance to avoid physical destruction. That assistance will only come from those few Gentiles who believe in the commandments of HaShem to take care of His People.
Shalom in (possibly mythical) Y'shua,
J.S. Kern
JS, now that you've clarified yourself, we can agree to agree on most of the first part of your last comment.
I didn't bring my words to a conclusion because the issue you brought up was what occurs along the historic path before the conclusion is arrived.
My "paranoia" is your fickle speculation. We are seeing a constant offensive against Jews by soul-sucking christians. Just like it says: "To the Jew first".
If you wish to earn anyone's trust, stop pretending your coreligionists aren't the source of this problem.
And if wish to claim that we should drop everything else in the world because of the Islamic threat, then please convince your coreligionists to place a 100% moratorium on their Jew missionizing so as not to distract us from a mutual goal.
In short, go look in the mirror.
BTW, regarding "possible mythical jesus", see The Jesus Puzzle.
Better yet, buy the book.
My whole point is about the nature of the threats you see. Where in the Tanakh does it say Judaism will be wiped out by another religion? For how many thousands of years has it been preserved by HaShem despite all the power of near-unbridled evil that has come against it? Do you really think G_d will let the souls of His people be sucked out by blasphemous, idolatrous liars? It’s simply not possible for Truth to be defeated by Falsity.
Therefore the only thing about Christianity that Jews have to “fear” is that it might be true. Since you personally don’t believe that it is true, that Moshiach came and was rejected, then, if you’re being consistent—spiritually and intellectually—you can’t possibly believe that a pagan belief has any chance “against” Judaism.
Although, that being said, I understand perfectly the offensive nature of much of the historical and, sadly, present day conversion mentality that permeates Christian evangelism. I am appalled at replacement theology and would eradicate every vestige of it from the world if I could (I do what I can, where I can). Christianity is not a religion and was never meant to be—it is simply a belief in Yeshua as the promised Jewish Moshiach, the redeemer of His people and the light to the Gentiles (a mistaken belief to you, certainly, but no more mistaken than the belief of countless other Jewish groups--like the Chabad Messianists for instance). The idea that the Church has replaced Judaism is an abomination. And, thank G_d, this fact is being understood by more and more Christians each and every day.
In light of that, I fear you are distracting yourself unnecessarily from our mutual goal of meeting and overcoming the Islamic threat. I am as put off as you are (though for different reasons, I’m sure) by the idea of a Jesus Hotel—and Bible Land amusement parks or Holy Spirit video games—but it doesn’t put me off or scare me half as much as a large, domed edifice in the middle of Jerusalem that screams, “Allah is Greater!” Because I know Who they think he’s greater than and are all too willing to torture and kill to prove it.
Oh, and I have looked in the mirror, many times—and every time I see what looks back, I am grateful for His limitless mercy.
Shalom in The Name,
J.S. Kern
Kern, since you're a messianic christian, I'm sure you know that last week's Parsha was Balak. At the end of the parsha, Billam advises Moav's king Balak to destroy Israel through idolatry and sexual immorals.
24,000 were killed in the ensuing plague.
Hashem (Whom has nothing to do with your pagan trinitarian beliefs) lays it out very clear in the Torah how strict He will be with us regarding Avodah Zarah, especially if it's tolerated in the Land of Israel.
If you so much wish that we concentrate together against the common human enemy of Islam, simply ask all your kookie co-religionists to stop distracting us.
You claims about truth verses falsehood and lies are easily rebutted by looking at your own beliefs.
It has nothing to do with being "wiped out". It has to do with damage control to our people's spiritual integrity, with people like you dismissing the value of even a single Jewish soul during its stay in the world.
And your dead jesus was nobody's messiah - and that's even assuming he actually existed. Wake up and smell the ether.
"Countless other groups", you say? All you can list is the ones in part of Chabad. And 2 or 3 wrongs don't make a right, nor even a half truth. Say, have you looked into becoming a Sabatian lately?
Our history has taught us that if we Jews do not repent, no one can save us from G-d's decree. Enemies from without are only due to troubles from within.
Go back and read Leviticus 26. That's G-d explaining the simple rules of cause and effect and the reintroduction of idolatrous christianity into the land of Israel is the symptom pointed out in that very first verse.
Of course, your pagan beliefs teach you that G-d has dismissed the Torah away, especially the 2nd of the 10 Commandments. Very fickle, that god of yours....
Shy Guy,
Interesting how on the one hand you insist that Yeshua is not Moshiach, whilst insisting that belief in Moshiach is paganism. It’s a peculiar contradiction; a theological oxymoron—along the lines of the Muslim insistence that 911 had nothing to do with Islam while at the same time hailing the perpetrators as martyrs of Islam.
Btw, I only cited one example because I assumed you had a stronger grasp than I of Jewish history and therefore didn’t need me to enumerate all the Jewish messianic sects who’ve proclaimed their Rav Moshiach. If that’s not the case, may I suggest you start with a quick Google search…?
Again, my point was, regardless of how mistaken these Jews were (are), they didn’t automatically become pagans and non-Jews because of it. Moshiach is coming; do you deny this? The only difference between those Messianics and the ones who believe Yeshua ben David to be Moshiach is…is…oh yeah, Yeshua actually fulfilled 300 prophesies concerning Moshiach…no, wait, you don’t want to believe that…I know; there is no difference between them. They’re still Jews (albeit mistaken) and the Moshiach they proclaim is the Promised One of HaShem.
Now, as to the souls of Jews, you’re not reading what I’m writing. Where did I undervalue “even a single Jewish soul”?
Anyway, HaShem values them, what can a mere man do against Him? Do you really think those 24,000 were tricked or fooled into sin? Their idolatrous, wicked hearts lead them to choose sin and its consequences, not Balak. Then as now, people choose to sin—blaming the tempter is a cop out.
As far as Avodah Zarah is concerned, I refer you again to that monstrosity in the heart of the Holy City proclaiming a foreign moon-god’s greatness over Him. And what do you imagine HaShem thinks of your placing that on a par with those who believe in His Promised One? To you they’re both wrong, yes, but are they both sinning? Really?
And, by the way, in the interest of accuracy, I’m taught that HaMashiach Yeshua didn’t “dismiss the Torah away”, but that He was the fulfilment of it—it all pointed to His coming to be the final sacrifice for our sins—the sins of both the Jews and the Gentiles—that all mankind could be redeemed to HaShem.
Blood covering sin? How horrible is that!
Kern, let's take your nonsense apart piece by piece.
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Interesting how on the one hand you insist that yeshua is not moshiach, whilst insisting that belief in moshiach is paganism.
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I insisted no such thing. It is christianity that concocted the concept of a man-god messiah deity. As pointed out, that's not at all what the Tanach mentions. The church's comic book writers were forced to come up with this plot in order to reconcile their son of god pagan mythology with Jewish scriptures, to grant themselves a legitimacy of continuum. Just like a pig showing its cleft hooves, proclaiming itself to be kosher. We Jews simply know you have to also look under the hood.
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Btw, I only cited one example because I assumed you had a stronger grasp than I of Jewish history and therefore didn’t need me to enumerate all the Jewish messianic sects who’ve proclaimed their Rav Moshiach. If that’s not the case, may I suggest you start with a quick Google search…?
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They're all wasted by the wayside in the Jewish world and rather rapidly. Just like your dead jesus.
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Again, my point was, regardless of how mistaken these Jews were (are), they didn’t automatically become pagans and non-Jews because of it.
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That would depend on the different historical cases. Plenty of Jews became pagans and cut themselves off from their people forever.
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Moshiach is coming; do you deny this?
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No. But the future was no less true before or after your dead jew on a stick was born.
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The only difference between those Messianics and the ones who believe yeshua ben david to be moshiach is…is…oh yeah, Yeshua actually fulfilled 300 prophesies concerning moshiach…no, wait, you don’t want to believe that…I know; there is no difference between them. They’re still Jews (albeit mistaken) and the moshiach they proclaim is the Promised One of haShem.
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Old hogwash. He couldn't even fulfill his own proclamations! Keep on wishing it were true. And since jesus never likely existed in the first place, your NT is pulp fiction from top to bottom and none of those miracles ever occurred. You've got nothing in your hands but pixie dust.
Christian scholar Rt. Rev. George Arthur Butterick, in The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible, a book written by to prove the validity of the New Testament, states:
” A study of 150 Greek [manuscripts] of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings… It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the [manuscript] is wholly uniform.”
Other scholars report there are some 200,000 variants in the existing manuscripts of the New Testament, representing about 400 variant readings which cause doubt about textual meaning; 50 of these are of great significance.
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Now, as to the souls of Jews, you’re not reading what I’m writing. Where did I undervalue “even a single Jewish soul”?
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When you, as a pagan believer in jesus, have the audacity to tell us to ignore you co-religionist spiritual vampires pecking at the necks of our people in our land.
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Anyway, HaShem values them, what can a mere man do against Him? Do you really think those 24,000 were tricked or fooled into sin? Their idolatrous, wicked hearts lead them to choose sin and its consequences, not Balak. Then as now, people choose to sin—blaming the tempter is a cop out.
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You obviously have no understanding of Bechira - freedom to chose between good and bad, plus the obligation and responsibility of on Jew to another to assist fellow Jews to make the right choices and avoid the wrong ones.
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As far as Avodah Zarah is concerned, I refer you again to that monstrosity in the heart of the Holy City proclaiming a foreign moon-god’s greatness over Him.
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First, grow up and admit that whatever Islam perhaps may have been at its inception, it is not today. Read all of their orthodox religious texts from any of the established schools of jurisprudence. They are pure monotheists and they have been throughout most if not almost all of their history.
Second, you have no idea what I do in supporting the removal of anything Islamic from our country. You've barked up a wrong tree. And again, it is the christians who are giving us the distractions under discussion. Bark at your christian friends.
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And what do you imagine hashem thinks of your placing that on a par with those who believe in His Promised One? To you they’re both wrong, yes, but are they both sinning? Really?
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Really. Ben Noach, you are forbidden to worship the pagan man-god you do. And when you try to pawn off your avodah zarah on us Jews, the transgression is that much worse.
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And, by the way, in the interest of accuracy, I’m taught that hamashiach yeshua didn’t “dismiss the Torah away”, but that He was the fulfilment of it—it all pointed to His coming to be the final sacrifice for our sins—the sins of both the Jews and the Gentiles—that all mankind could be redeemed to hashem.
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Yes, we're quite familiar with your gibberish. You folks repeat it so often.
In the interest of your general education, read Blood Sacrifices. But you folks aren't generally interested in being educated.
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Blood covering sin? How horrible is that!
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No more or less horrible than a meal offering atoning for sin.
Shy Guy,
Fascinating! Thanks for that. Your well-made points raise a few questions, though. So, in the interest of my general education, which, I assure you, I’m always eager to improve…
About Gibberish, Avodah Zarah & Messiah--The whole concept was given to the Gentiles by Jews; the expectation of a human Messiah is a Jewish one, not pagan. We Gentiles didn’t invent it; we just believe it; which is why your calling this belief “paganism” struck me as contradiction. What then is Messiah if not a man? And how did so many Jews in history get it so wrong and end up “wasted by the wayside in the Jewish world” and lead the Gentiles astray? (Does that mean they became un-Jewish, too?) Why did HaShem permit it?
Manuscript variance—It’s a compelling argument on an earthly level, but not really valid when one believes G_d is compiling the verses as He wants them. Easy for Him to take all the thousands of variant texts and get the hundreds of people to put them in the order He wanted. His desires for mankind will be realized regardless of the universal fallibilities of scribes, translators and, yes, even the outright charlatans. You don’t really think men could ultimately foil the will of HaShem, do you?
My Audacity—I apologize if my hasty appeal for perspective came across as audaciousness, or was in any other way disrespectful. I am deeply sorry and truly meant no offence. I wasn’t telling you to ignore anything; merely wanted to comment on what I saw as an overreaction in the light of larger threats. Again, I see where I was mistaken (thank you), and am sorry.
Bechira—My understanding of free will is rooted in the idea of personal choice—informed and conscience-led. I can’t blame others for my choosing evil if a) I have been told that a given action or behaviour is evil before making the choice; and b) if, regardless of what I’ve been told, my conscience “tells” me it’s wrong. You can’t say this is “no understanding”, but you can say it is an “erroneous” understanding. If so, I’d ask you to correct it—where am I in error?
Islam—My juvenile understanding is that, whilst Muslims are certainly monotheists, they are worshiping a false god. Or, do I take it that you believe Allah to be HaShem? If so, how do you reconcile the present day insistence of Muslim’s that the Koran is the correct(ed) scriptures and that the Torah is wrong? Does this not make them “spiritual vampires pecking at the necks of [your] people in [your] land”?
Disproportionate Response—I appreciate that your actions vis-à-vis the Islamic presence in Israel are unknown to me, but your response to the Christian presence in Israel (as evidenced by your comments on this blog) appears to me to be wholly disproportionate to the threat we pose relative to the magnitude of the threat posed by Islam. My original comment, however insolently it was made, sought to highlight that point. Your reaction to my comment(s) indicates that you are threatened by both Muslims and Christians to the same degree!
The Muslims teach that the Jews are infidels who should be converted or killed and who have no right to the Land of Israel. They say the Torah has been perverted and that G_d’s name is “Allah”. Christians teach that the Torah is 100% true and that the Jews are the Chosen Nation of HaShem and are to be protected from harm and that they have every right to the Land of Israel. We are to pray that you come to see Yeshua as Messiah, and are to tell you His Gospel but we are taught you will remain Jews forever and that ultimately He will reconcile you to Himself by Himself.
Now, however wrong you think both sides are theologically, how can you see them as equally dangerous?
Blogger dropped my response. I'll make this short:
Regarding "Gibberish, Avodah Zarah & Messiah", the whole concept was given by heretical Jews. Further, what was canonized is not the same belief as the original apostles, especially not Paul. Read The Jesus Puzzle in a Nutshell. The web article does not do justice to the updated book.
As for why Hasem permitted these things, you already partially answered that yesterday when you admitted you're much better off leaving behind the paganism of the ancient world. Well, that pagansim was around and quite popular, too! Does that make it valid? No. Does that mean that G-d condoned it? No.
And the very same argument legitimizes Islam's claims no less than yours. After all, 1400 years of establishment and 2 billion adherents straddling the globe is nothing to sneeze at. They'll just say the same thing you just claimed.
As for why people are led astray in this world, see Rabbi Tovia Singer's article But Look How Believing in Jesus Has Changed My Life!
Your paragraph on "manuscript variance" only shows how gullable you're willing to make yourself in order to excuse your god for the sloppy mess which was cobbled together and ignoring the fact that all the pieces don't fit together. Again, buy this book.
I'll leave you with this thought on Islam. Islam's Allah is equal to Hashem in their common definition of many Divine attributes. Let's take a look at Maimonides 13 Principles. Islam believes in Hashem/G-d/Allah as the Creator, that G-d's Oneness is unique, that G-d is incorporeal, that G-d is ex-nihilo, that no other creation is to be served alongside G-d, and that G-d is omniscient.
Christianity fails on several of those attributes, placing you as an Oved Avodah Zarah, a prohibition forbidden by the Creator to all of mankind since the creation of Adam. Both Christianity and Islam fail on the remaining principles regarding the false prophets and scriptures.
I have to stop here. Preparations for the Jewish Sabbath call me.
Good luck. Remember, "the truth will set you free". That would have to be one of the most ironic verses ever written.
Shy, you've done a great job here.
It's time to close comments.
Shabbat Shalom u'Mevorach
Blessing from the Holy City of Shiloh
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