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Sunday, August 21, 2011

Are You Partying With Glenn Beck?

Our local rabbi, HaRav Elchanan Bin-Nun came out with a statement against attending the Glenn Beck "happening" this week.  My written Hebrew comprehension is the pits, especially when I'm tired," so I'll just give you the bottom line.  Don't go!   Beck's associated with missionary personalities who target Jews for conversion etc. and has them on his program.  The Hebrew is from Rav Elchanan's letter:

לכנס זה הוזמנו גם יהודים מרחבי יש"ע וגם מבנימין, ולצערי הרב ישתתף שם גם הרב ריסקין ואחרים. לאחר בדיקת המידע על הכנס ועל תכנו ברצוני להודיע כי חלק מהכנס יהיה בודאי טכס נוצרי דתי גם במלל וגם בשירה. גם אם החלק הזה של הטכס מופנה לקהל נוצרי שיהיה שם, יש אסור הלכתי להשתתף בכנס זה, לדעת רבנים רבים, להערכתי, רוב מוחלט של הרבנים והרבנות הראשית בכלל. האסור הוא ענף של השתתפות בטכס של ע"ז שזהו אסור חמור מאד. על כן, ברצוני להודיע שאסור להיענות להזמנה זו.
As you know, I support the Jewish Israel site, and they have articles on Beck which are worth reading and in English.

The Christian groups have a very clear agenda.  It doesn't matter how well they hide it.  The legitimacy of their religion is based on the denial of Judaism.

The photos were taken in New York at a table set up to attract Jews to Christianity.


80 comments:

Anonymous said...

Israel is being bombarded with rockets, its citizens being killed and you are worried about Partying with Glen Beck. What is wrong with you? May Hashem have rachmanes.

Anonymous said...

Fom a different Anonymous.
Batya is 110% on the ball with this one. Partying with GB is part of the problem. We have to put our trust in Hashem and Hashem alone, and stop fawning over goyim who show us a little bit of love. We are the abused child of the world that if someone says a kind word to us we idolise them. Time to get off this American Idol trip.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous #1: Did it occur to you that maybe this is why the rockets are falling???

Anonymous #3

Batya said...

ax3, just reading the recent Torah Portions of the Week make it very clear that there's reward for obeying G-d, settling the Land and punishment for doing the opposite. Certainly putting one's faith in goyim is a sin. We don't need their praise and approval.

Shy Guy said...

Chazal say that one who fully credits someone he quotes bring redemption to the world.

It would help if all you people with the generic name "anonymous" assigned yourselves a fictitious talkback name for easier reference. It doesn't cost anything and you won't lose your privacy.

I can think of a million reasons why we are being punished the way we are. Partying at christian themed and promotional events, such as beck, with his entourage of many known major missionary leaders and organizations, is not going to improve our fate. Hashem yerachem, indeed, Anon #1.

Esser Agaroth said...

Kol HaKavod to Rav Elhanan, Batya, and Shy Guy!

Anon 1, Yishmael is a problem, but so is Esau.

We must protect ourselves physically as well as spiritually.

Esau is cunning, baffling, and thus powerful.

P. S. Is Shilo going to start enforcing its no Arab workers policy anytime soon?

What about the Chicken House and Vineyard just below it? Is that owner still employing "Palestinians?"

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
We are fighting wars on many fronts, spiritual and physical (i.e. military). Ignoring either front is only going to make fighting the other even harder.

Anonymous said...

Hashem protects you all from enemies. But He cant protect you from yourself when you willingly lie with esau. jews can treat all people well, reach out and help others in need during all times, but as for trust. it has to be only in Hashem.
well, many orthodox jews are supporting glen beck. i hope they are right, but if they are wrong after so much warnings. .......
anonymous wrote....israel is being bombarded with rockets, its citizens being killed etc. yismael only kills your body, but esau kils you spiritually. jerusalem is a house of prayer for all nations, when Hashem brings them to the 7 laws. Batya is right.

ellen said...

Jewish Israel will be issuing a report about this evening's planned event later today. It is a Christian event and has been advertised as such. Known missionary personalities who actively target Jews in Israel will be joining Beck.

Devash said...

Speaking of the parsha...

Batya said...

We must work together on this. Easier said than done.

Devorah said...

Anonymous #3
If you listen to Rabbi Glazerson's
Terror in Eilat Torah Codes you will see that the Torah codes do not mention Glenn Beck as a reason for the terror attacks: according to the codes it is immoral behaviour and immodest dress. We don't need to blame him for that.

not a goy said...

So, the Rabbi Metzger made a boo-boo when he gave Glen a bracha? Oh, I guess he should have asked this enlightened crowd. No one EVER said to worship Glen Beck, Gd forbid, or put our "faith in him", Gd forbid. No, our faith is firmly placed in Hashem. Who do you all think has placed GB in Eretz Yisroel? Hashem runs the world people! How about a polite thank you to a very nice goy who likes us. I'm always amazed how righteous gentiles can actually like us when we spit on them for their sincere friendship. I don't know...I"m trusting Rav Metzger instead of you all:)

Batya said...

Devorah, for sure. People love to exagerrate

not', There's free will. We must make the right choices and not blame G-d. GB is here for his agenda.

Shy Guy said...

So, NAG, you think Rav Metzger approves in the Beck produced video of Metzger blessing him, which starts off with Beck at the entrance to what the christians believe is the empty tomb of Jesus and entering it leads you to Beck's "Restoring Courage" campaign?

You think Rav Metzger approves of that?

Forget about Rav Metzger for a moment. Do you?

The whole situation is absurd. Or maybe it's not. It's all for a tremendous lack of trust in Hashem, for money, power and because of a feeling of desperation. And I'm talking about Torah observant rabbis and leaders (not necessarily Rav Metzger at all).

We are an embarrassment to ourselves slobbering over this false christian love and not setting strict and united guidelines to separate moral agendas from the christian's blatantly theological ones. We have totally lost it. We're already paying in the infiltration of messyanic christians throughout this country, all funded by the very same Becks and Hagees you so much suggest we embrace.

The kiss of Eisav. Learn from Yaakov Avinu what to do when Hashem brings certain personalities to your doorstep to confront Israel with the "love". Or are you saying Yaakov Avinu goofed, too?

not a goy said...

Shy Guy, I'm saying, GB doesn't threaten me, nor my children because they are educated to love and fear Hashem. GB (may Hashem bless him for being a righteous gentile) is doing what the Jews are not...standing up for what is right...Eretz Yisroel. The government acts like self-hating quislings. If there is a problem with Xtians converting Jews, Gd forbid, it is our fault, not theirs. Their religion is ridiculous; how could even a semi-literate Jew fall for it? Again, it is our fault. You give them way too much power. Let them have their love-fest. It's good for the economy. I think it shows a total lack of self-respect to be so afraid of them. Let's prioritize, shall we? Ishmael wants to annihilate us physically and they are doing that at an alarming rate, Gd forbid. We need to focus on that like a laser beam. When we're assured of our physical survival, we can address Esau. I welcome GB, John Voight and any other gentile who extends friendship. I have actually listened to GB for 9 years (thank you Glen for suggesting I buy gold when it was $700. an oz.) and he is not interested in converting us anymore than any other Xtian. It's part of their faith, like kashrut is for us. It's one thing to have a love-fest on us like Glen is doing. It's quite another to sell large land parcels to build idolatrous churches in Eretz HaKodesh, which I oppose. That IS against Torah.

YMedad said...

a) anyone interested in the exchange between me and Rav Elchanan (but in Hebrew) can review the correspondence.

b) I'm still Jewish if anyone has doubts.

Laser said...

The claim "Beck's associated with missionary personalities who target Jews for conversion etc." has been made, but without anything to back it up.

Please provide the necessary information.

Laser

Laser said...

Ellen said, "Jewish Israel will be issuing a report about this evening's planned event later today."

I don't know what an organization with such a pretentious name is or what they represent. How can I see the report you refer to?

Laser

Laser said...

I read most of the exchange in Hebrew between Yisrael and his spiritual leader. I identify 100 perecnt with Yisrael's comments.

Now I would like to know the extent to which the apperaance contained prayers that the good rabbi warned against.

Laser said...

A very leftist article about Glen Becak (written by a Jew) apperaed in Hararetz and is reprinted at http://readersupportednews.org/off-site-opinion-section/72-72/7142-is-glenn-beck-a-friend-or-foe-to-israel

You will note that the readers who identify withte writer's viewpoint are anti-Israel and anti-Jewish.

You may want to leave a comment there.

Laser

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/147139#.TlT4lvSdkv8
I'll quote comment #37 here:
Last night, Beck Team blessed participants in name of JESUS!
Last night, I was at an event for Beck at the Bible Lands Museum. There, the last speaker stood to bless the whole crowd IN THE NAME OF J C! As a proud Jew who wants to keep Christianity out of Israel, I was horrified - but also amused. As much as they try to hide their interest in influencing us all to believe in their god, they just can't do it!
If it's true, there's a problem with hosting Beck.
The Jewish Israel that Ellen mentioned has quite a bit of information about Glenn Beck on the site already. http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/jewish-israel-members-weigh-in

Batya said...

Hadassa, thanks. That's the reason. It's both pathetic and dangerous that so many "daiim" are groveling for goyish approval.

Ellen has full blogging rights here, because I want to publicize the Jewish Israel message.

Laser said...

I saw this film clip, and it had none of the disturbing aspect that you mention.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/147172#.TlU3a10iiSo

Further, whoever the "daaim" may be, no one is groveling to get the approval of the goyim. What we so badly need is support of Israel, and we are not getting that from the bulk of American Jewry.

We area getting it from lots of American Xtians, of whom most have no ulterior motives. And we have enough intelligence to reject thiose who are attempting to missionize.

Laser said...

The fact that Shalom Akhshav demonstrated against Glenn Beck in Jerusalem today should make it that much clearer that we should support him, as he supports us.

Batya said...

Laser, a "clip" is edited, censored.
The Left doesn't like anyone who shows religiosity. That's not a reason to ignore the fact that Beck has close ties to missionaries and messianics. He can do what he wants as a christian, but I don't have to cheer him on or get his blessing.

YMedad said...

I may have mentioned this before but, shhhh, Christians sort of missionize naturally. It come with the religion. The job of those who seek to create a political alliance with forces positive to the idea of a Jewish Israel (the state, not the site) is to correct them, restrict them. Since I know I possess the better religion, I don't go around wringing my hands. That speaker spoke after Beck had left, if I am not mistaken and indeed, many were surprised that he got through. However, since I took a bus to YU from the Bronx almost everyday for two years and everytime the bus passed the big Roman Catholic church half the bus crossed themselves, I guess I may be, fortunately or unfortunately inured. Vicky Berglas said she would take it up with Glenn - she took him to Auschwitz (she's Rav Fabian Schonfeld's daughter). Mentioning JC is not an attempt at missionizing so I can't comprehend the shock.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
If Beck wants to convince Jews that he's not in any way associated with anyone who doesn't respect Jewish law, having a speaker bless everyone in the name of JC is a mistake too big to ignore.

Laser said...

"If Beck wants to convince Jews that he's not in any way associated with anyone who doesn't respect Jewish law, having a speaker bless everyone in the name of JC is a mistake too big to ignore."

That's the way Xtians bless Xtians.

If you lkike, we can alienate our few remaining friends. We've lost the bulk of the Jews; now we can ;lse the evangelicals if you really put your mind to it.

Laser

Laser said...

To what extent are all these attempts to cause us to lose our remainiung supporters based on the Rambam's classifying Xtianty as AZ?

What if we adopt the position of all those posqim who classify the Xtains' belief as shittuf rather than AZ?

Laser

Batya said...

Laser, if they truly support us they will understand that we won't attend those big gatherings or any other "spiritual" event they run.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Batya, I am not sure for whom you speak when you claim that "we" will not attend "their" rallies. So far, "we" seems to be you and Hadassa.

(Could you incoroprate a spell checker here? I am letting far too many typos get through.)

You do have one good point though. When we attended all those rallies leading up to the expulsion from Gush Katif, we toatlly wasted our energies and failed to take serious action.

Batya said...

stranger, Many of us are staying away, getting our strength from Jewish sources, but it's not very pc to say so out loud. As I have mentioned, our local rabbi, HaRav Elchanan Bin-Nun sent out a public letter forbidding attending the rally, not that everyone obeyed him.
Of course, Jewish Israel and its rabbinic and lay leadership are against Jews attending such rallies.

ps I have no control over spellchecks etc. When I want to check, I copy to word and spellcheck that way.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Understanding Christianity in its various forms is not something that every rav is an expert on. Especially if he is an Israeli with the corresponding limited exposure to such things.

Traditional Jewish halachic attitudes towards Christianity were largely based on Roman Catholicism and later on Eastern Orthodox Christianity.

Had you said that Rav Soloveichik made a halachic ruling in this regard, I would be far more attentive.

What is Jewish Israel? Is it anything like Schechter's Catholic Israel?

Batya said...

stranger, Check things out before criticizing. Rav Elchanan is in consultation with America-raised rabbis about this. Take a good look at Jewish Israel http://jewishisrael.com/ and its Team. Rav Soleveitchik also forbade religious/theological meetings with Christians. This is discussed on Jewish Israel, too.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Batya said that "Rav Soleveitchik also forbade religious/theological meetings with Christians."

Of course, that is why I mentioned him.

This rally is clearly not what the Rav had in mind. Quite the opposite.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

What is "Jewish Israel"?

Why the pretentious name?

Is it anything like Schechter's "Catholic Israel"?

Reminds of my youth in the Bronx, when some of the local pre-teens formed a basketball team called "the Real Real Knickerbockers."

Shall I assume that your husband does not agree with you on this issue?

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Regarding your link, WOT warns that the "Jewish Israel" has a poor reputation (actually VERY POOR).

See http://www.mywot.com/en/scorecard/jewishisrael.com .

The queen is not amused.

Batya said...

If you want to worship wot as judge, that's your problem. I know and trust the people on Jewish Israel. Do you know all those who vote in wot and how easy it is to get an agenda going?

Give up. You're certainly not going to change my mind. You don't even have the guts and moral honesty to admit who you are. I may not even bother replying to your comments. I have no problem letting people know who I am. I don't hide behind masks.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

What is Jewish Israel? Is it anything like Schechter's Catholic Israel?

Batya, I'm sorry to say it, but your fears are not evidence-based.

In an interview with the Jerusalem Post, Pastor John Hagee stated it clearly:

'The new initiative by Hagee, who has collected and distributed millions of dollars to Israeli causes over the past 25 years, raises questions about what precisely he means by "support for Israel" and whether there are conditions for that support. In an interview with The Jerusalem Post, he said "Christians United for Israel is completely loyal to the positions of the Bible" and that he does not seek to influence the Israeli government or to support political candidates in Israel or America. But that "loyalty" to the Bible, in his interpretation, for instance, means not backing the relinquishing of biblical territory.

'It's an apparent contradiction that he reconciled as follows: "The Bible says that God gave the Jewish people this sacred land. 'It's yours. Don't give it away. If you choose to give it away, that's your business. We're still friends, although we feel you make the wrong choice. I wouldn't stop supporting Israel because of your choice.'"

'Interviewed by the Post at the recent AIPAC national convention in Washington, DC, where he was warmly received by many delegates, Hagee also carefully explained his thinking on the incendiary issue of evangelical attitudes to Jews and Judaism.

'In precise and deliberate language, flavored with a rich, deep Texas drawl, he asserted that a growing majority of evangelical leaders do not preach "replacement theology, which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel" and the Jews "have no future in the plan of God." The vast majority of evangelicals, rather, teach that "the Christians have a Bible mandate to be supportive of Israel and the Jewish people without a hidden agenda."

'True to that interpretation, Hagee said, "I do not target Jews for conversion."'

Please pay special attention to the last sentence.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

What is Jewish Israel? Is it anything like Schechter's Catholic Israel?

Batya, I'm sorry to say it, but your fears are not evidence-based.

In an interview with the Jerusalem Post, Pastor John Hagee stated it clearly:

'The new initiative by Hagee, who has collected and distributed millions of dollars to Israeli causes over the past 25 years, raises questions about what precisely he means by "support for Israel" and whether there are conditions for that support. In an interview with The Jerusalem Post, he said "Christians United for Israel is completely loyal to the positions of the Bible" and that he does not seek to influence the Israeli government or to support political candidates in Israel or America. But that "loyalty" to the Bible, in his interpretation, for instance, means not backing the relinquishing of biblical territory.

'It's an apparent contradiction that he reconciled as follows: "The Bible says that God gave the Jewish people this sacred land. 'It's yours. Don't give it away. If you choose to give it away, that's your business. We're still friends, although we feel you make the wrong choice. I wouldn't stop supporting Israel because of your choice.'"

'Interviewed by the Post at the recent AIPAC national convention in Washington, DC, where he was warmly received by many delegates, Hagee also carefully explained his thinking on the incendiary issue of evangelical attitudes to Jews and Judaism.

'In precise and deliberate language, flavored with a rich, deep Texas drawl, he asserted that a growing majority of evangelical leaders do not preach "replacement theology, which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel" and the Jews "have no future in the plan of God." The vast majority of evangelicals, rather, teach that "the Christians have a Bible mandate to be supportive of Israel and the Jewish people without a hidden agenda."

'True to that interpretation, Hagee said, "I do not target Jews for conversion."'

Please pay special attention to the last sentence.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Batya, I hereby promise not to worship WOT.

I'm sorry to say it, but your fears are not evidence-based.

In an interview with the Jerusalem Post, Pastor John Hagee stated it clearly:

'The new initiative by Hagee, who has collected and distributed millions of dollars to Israeli causes over the past 25 years, raises questions about what precisely he means by "support for Israel" and whether there are conditions for that support. In an interview with The Jerusalem Post, he said "Christians United for Israel is completely loyal to the positions of the Bible" and that he does not seek to influence the Israeli government or to support political candidates in Israel or America. But that "loyalty" to the Bible, in his interpretation, for instance, means not backing the relinquishing of biblical territory.

'It's an apparent contradiction that he reconciled as follows: "The Bible says that God gave the Jewish people this sacred land. 'It's yours. Don't give it away. If you choose to give it away, that's your business. We're still friends, although we feel you make the wrong choice. I wouldn't stop supporting Israel because of your choice.'"

'Interviewed by the Post at the recent AIPAC national convention in Washington, DC, where he was warmly received by many delegates, Hagee also carefully explained his thinking on the incendiary issue of evangelical attitudes to Jews and Judaism.

'In precise and deliberate language, flavored with a rich, deep Texas drawl, he asserted that a growing majority of evangelical leaders do not preach "replacement theology, which teaches that the Church has replaced Israel" and the Jews "have no future in the plan of God." The vast majority of evangelicals, rather, teach that "the Christians have a Bible mandate to be supportive of Israel and the Jewish people without a hidden agenda."

'True to that interpretation, Hagee said, "I do not target Jews for conversion."'

Please pay special attention to the last sentence.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Batya, you should check with the technical support people.

My post keeps disappearing. I am sure that you are not so cowardly as to voluntarily delete my post just because it does not agree with you.

While you are the owner, you also have a commitment to free speech.

Batya said...

stranger, blogger puts you as spam and I just rescued you to be polite, but as I said, you're not my expert. I don't know who you are. I've chosen my own rabbi.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Batya, thank you for restoring me. Have you any idea why Blogger put me into spam?

Was I right when I guessed that you and your husband do not see eye-to-eye on this matter?

Laser said...

The claim that "Beck's associated with missionary personalities who target Jews for conversion etc." has been made, but without anything to back it up.

1. What does the et cetera in the claim refer to?

2. Please provide information to authenticate this very serious claim.

.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Stranger, I've noticed that on articles about Beck the Jews in support of him blather about friendship, which is an important sentiment, but meaningless outside of the framework of the Torah and the Jews who are wary of him quote the Torah and rabbinic opinions on how to deal with other "religions". If you have a Facebook page, look at David Ha'Ivri's page. His detractors bring up some very important points.

Laser said...

I read here all these attempts to cause us to lose our remaining supporters. To what extent are they based on the Rambam's classification of Xtianity as AZ?

What if we adopt the position of all those posqim who classify the Xtians' belief as shittuf rather than AZ?

And have we taken into account the clear denial of the Xtian Zionists that they have any intention of missionizing?

.

Batya said...

Laser, there is no one unified group of "Christian Zionists," so there can be no "denial of the Xtian Zionists that they have any intention of missionizing." It's not that simple. The various evangenical, missionary and christian zionist groups are tangled up. There is a goal, an agenda, part of christian theology to convert us.

If anyone truly supports and respects us, they would understand our limits and restrictions and not stop their support.

Your question about his associations is answered in Jewish Israel.

Laser said...

Batya is of course right that "there is no one unified group of Christian Zionists, so there can be no denial of the Xtian Zionists that they have any intention of missionizing."

What I was referring to, and I suppose I should have made clearer, is Pastor John Hagee's statement in the Jerusalem Post interview, "Hagee said, 'I do not target Jews for conversion.'"

Pastor Hagee and Glenn Beck were erroneously refrred to by Shy Guy: "We're already paying in the infiltration of messyanic christians throughout this country, all funded by the very same Becks and Hagees you so much suggest we embrace."

I think this might be classified as lashon hara, but who am I to know such things?


.

Batya said...

Lazer, again I ask all of you to remember what the ultimate aim of Christianity really is. We don't need to get friendly with charasmatic christians. There's a "marat eyin" that when a "strong Jew" is seen at these things, weaker ones follow and then are more susceptible to their influence.

Laser said...

Batya also said that "There is a goal, an agenda, part of christian theology to convert us."

This might come as a big surpise to Batya and her spiritual adviser, but she is referring to replacement theology, which is rejected by Glenn Beck and Pastor Hagee.

As A Stranger in a Strange Land stated, "Traditional Jewish halachic attitudes towards Christianity were largely based on Roman Catholicism and later on Eastern Orthodox Christianity."

This is not whewre we're at. Not Glenn Beck and not John Hagee.


.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
I'm not familiar with all of the names in the article. Should they give us cause for concern? http://mediamatters.org/blog/201108150009

Batya said...

Laser, most of the missionizing Jews is from the various Protestant and evangelical churches, not the Catholics nowadays.

Hadassa, contact Ellen and Mina for more info.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Glenn Beck and Dr. John Hagee, although they repeat over and over again that they do not proselytize, DO believe that all Jews should convert because the complete truth is with Jesus. Isn't that enough to make us stay away from them?
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/15756/evangelicals-seeing-the-error-of-replacement-theology
A quote from Dr. Hagee:
What is going to happen when Jesus comes back? Every Christian believes that Jesus Christ is the messiah. The Jewish people do not believe that. In that regard we have to agree to disagree. I say to my rabbi friends: "You don't believe it; I do believe it. When we're standing in Jerusalem, and the messiah is coming down the street, one of us is going to have a very major theological adjustment to make. But until that time, let's walk together in support of Israel and in defense of the Jewish people, because Israel needs our help."
That's a friend?

Laser said...

Hadassa, that is indeed a friend.

He says that he will not proselytize.

What will happen when mashi'ah comes, we will see then. But he says over and over again that he is not going to try to get us to change our beliefs.


.

Laser said...

Batya says that "most of the missionizing Jews is from the various Protestant and evangelical churches, not the Catholics nowadays."

That is precisely the point (and has been made twice above). Rabbis who are not familiar with Xtian theology rely on the basic Jewish sources, which were familiar with Catholicism and then Eastern Orthodoxy.

Such rabbanim, learned as they may be, are out of their depth. Rav Riskin, regardless of his rabbinical qualifications as compared with those of your spiritual leader, is intimately familiar with modern Xtianity. And therefore in this case is more to be relied on.

.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

I have asked several times, but my questions remain unanswered:

What is "Jewish Israel"? Is it anything like Schechter's "Catholic Israel"?

What is behind the use by an obscure group of such a bombastic name as "Jewish Israel"? What does this tell us about their self-image?

A bit of modesty might make it easier for the undecided to take them seriously.

Batya said...

stranger, try modesty yourself. Stop the insults to all who disagree with you.

here's the link to Jewish Israel
http://jewishisrael.com/

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Batya, to the best of my knowledge I have not insulted anyone here, but if anyone feels that I have insulted him or her, I apologize.

What I have done is to point out errors in some people's knowledge or thinking.

It is important to have the facts before voicing an opinion.

I do not make it a habit to visit websites that are classified as having a very poor reputation. Such as the site you refer to, with that unfortunate name.

.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Batya,

Your blog is uncontrollable.

Now at least four times it has displayed my message and then the message has disappeared.

Please try to determine where the bug is.

.

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Laser, a Christian who wants all Jews to convert is a friend because he doesn't proselytize? Where's some Jewish pride? Where's the Torah?

Batya said...

stranger, again, blogger is a free service, part of google. It considers you spam. Don't keep repeatedly commenting. I'll now free them. But if they're repitious please delete them. I'll try to catch repetition.

YMedad said...

I wonder what is the interpretation of these verses from Isaiah 60:-

10 And aliens shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee; for in My wrath I smote thee, but in My favour have I had compassion on thee. 11 Thy gates also shall be open continually, day and night, they shall not be shut; that men may bring unto thee the wealth of the nations, and their kings in procession. 12 For that nation and kingdom that will not serve thee shall perish; yea, those nations shall be utterly wasted.

Who are the בני נכר? What does "build" imply? What does "minister" mean"? Does "men" mnean non-Jews? If so, does that include idol-worshippers? What does "wealth" mean? If a foreigner wishes not to perish or be watsed, what does he need to do?

If, in relation to missionaries, you always suspect them, is there anything they can do in the field of assistance to the Jewish state? If so, what? How?

On the one hand, we need to severely restrict a group like this and similar ones while finding a modus vivendi with others who declare as their policy no proselytizing.

YMedad said...

Notice Rabbi Eliezer Melamed there in this video sitting alongside, well, see for yourselves.

Laser said...

Hadassa, I had responded earlier to your comment, but my response does not appear among those printed above.

You asked, "Laser, a Christian who wants all Jews to convert is a friend because he doesn't proselytize? Where's some Jewish pride? Where's the Torah?"

I am not sure which Xtian you refer to.

But I must make it clear that Xtians are not bound by Torah; only by the seven Noahide commandments.

And further, I do not delve into people's minds about what you say they may or may not want to do. I confess to not being omniscient and so do not profess to know what they want to do. I judge them by their actions and their declarations.

I recommend that you speak to your rav about this subject -- but if he is not familiar with replacement theology, you should find another rav.

Laser


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Hadassa said...

Shalom!
I do not read people's minds. I read what they write, and I read what they're quoted as saying on their own sites. Beck, Hagee and their friends want Jews to be Christians, and they say so openly. As such, I honestly do not understand how they can be our friends. I'm well aware that non-Jews are obligated only to the seven Noachide commandments, and that Christians are not considered to be following them.

YMedad said...

Hadassa, please, post sources for those statements, since I posted statements to the contrary but in any case, we know Christians want ebveryone to be Christians, so nothing new there. What is new, which you may have missed, is that in this new relationsjip, the main Christian Zionist groups have come to the realization that they cannot proselytize if they want to work with us.

Laser said...

See today's Yisrael Hayom, whwere Dror Eydar writes (this is but a clip) "Glenn Beck is Worth Listening to":

'I suggest that you listen to the speech given by leading evangelist Pastor John Hagee at Beck's rally if you want to understand the religious force that has joined Israel and the Jewish people in one of our most troubled times. Hagee and his colleagues marked a first in 2,000 years: They denounced replacement theology, a principle of the Christian church that states that God abandoned the Jews after they rejected Jesus as the messiah and chose the church instead. Since then, the Jews have been considered "Israel after the flesh," or the biological offspring of the nation of Israel, as opposed to "Israel of the spirit," or "the chosen people." The evangelists have gone back to interpreting the Bible on its own terms, meaning that "Israel" signifies the Jewish people and the chosen people.'

http://www.israelhayom.com/site/newsletter_opinion.php?id=402

This has significance that an Israeli rabbi is likely to miss.


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YMedad said...

Someone sent this to my FB:

"We shouldn't generalize about them and lump them into a single category. The re-establishment of the Jewish state has not only affected contemporary Judaism but also contemporary Christianity. It is responsible for the Catholic church's gradual abandonment of replacement theology (John Paul II calling the Jewish people "our elder brothers" would have been unthinkable a couple of popes back). Similarly, the most important of Evangelicals, people like John Hagee, Pat Robertson, Mike Evans, have broken with replacement theology. For them, the re-establishment of a Jewish state is proof that God has a role for Jews as Jews, and, therefore, has given Jews a "dispensation" from converting to Christianity. I once knew a dispensationalist Pentacostal minister, the late David Allen Lewis, who used to call up Chabad to hand them names and phone numbers of Jews who approached his colleagues about converting or ventured too close to churches. He was one of the lamed-vav tzadikim."

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
If Rav Bin-Nun, Rav Lior, Rav Elyashiv, Rav Metzger, Moshe Feiglin, Shmuel Sackett, Mina Fenton and the Jewish Israel staff couldn't convince you to stay away from Beck, is anything that I'm going to find going to convince you? In my search I did find an interesting article by Sackett that I hadn't seen yet: http://jewishleadership.blogspot.com/2011/08/why-feiglin-didnt-back-beck.html . Perhaps someone here will find it interesting too.
I shouldn't have stated “on their own sites”. I've been going through a lot of material on many sites to use in discussions that I've been having in a several places. I used material from Mormon sites to show the general Mormon-Christian connection that many people chose to deny. The “in their own words” is accurate, and to me that is the important aspect. Beck and Hagee have claimed to believe that Jews don't have convert in order to be saved and that they don't target Jews for conversion. But as the JI staff, Shmuel Sackett in the article that I mentioned here and others have mentioned, organizations and people whom Beck and Hagee support DO target Jews. Daystar, which operates in Israel is a good example. Some of the links are to information that you may consider too old to be relevant, however they are within the time period during which Beck and Hagee claim to have been content to leave Jews with their Judaism. For the present, the fact that Beck and Hagee support the Daystar missionary channel is significant.
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/page/the-cufi-files-part-1
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201108150009
Hagee also affirms: “If God blinded the Jewish people to the identity of Jesus as Messiah, how could He send them to hell for not seeing what he had forbidden them to see?”11 He continues, “All people will gain entrance into heaven through Christ. The question is one of timing.” 12
11 John Hagee, personal faxed correspondence to CRI 18 October 1994, 3
12 Ibid., 6
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/rabbi-grossman-battles-hagee
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2010/5/21/162959/223
Hagee is rather inconsistent, as seen in the above link.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2008/5/28/6363/30439
Look at the quotes from “Jerusalem Countdown”
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Blogs/Message.aspx/4121#.TloZYPSdkv8
Comment #19
Israeli Cable Provider to Cancel Christian TV Network by Ze'ev Orenstein http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/123169 When the Daystar Television Network first began broadcasting in Israel just over a year ago, Pastor John Hagee, who recently launched, a national grassroots lobby Christians United for Israel which mobilizes Evangelical political support for the Jewish state, remarked that, “It’s just all I can do to keep from getting up and dancing. It’s a joy and it’s a dream come true. If we are able to preach the gospel without reservation [in Israel]... it’s a major breakthrough.”
More about Daystar: http://www.jewishpress.com/pageroute.do/25536
http://jewishisrael.ning.com/video/tbn-paul-crouch-sr-matt-crouch-igor-nikitin-at-jerusalem-2011-08- Glenn Beck is hiding behind this organization.
mediamatters.org/print/blog/201108150009
Hagee is nonetheless outspoken about his belief that "the Jewish people" will "recognize Jesus as the Messiah" at "the end of the Tribulation."
And it was in this article that I learned who Beck's mentor was: Cleon Skousen, who passed away five years ago. How far Beck departed from Skousen's teachings is not something I have time to research thoroughly, but what I did read wasn't favorable: http://blog.chron.com/believeitornot/2011/05/glenn-beck%E2%80%99s-rally-next-year-in-jerusalem/

Batya said...

Hadassa, thanks for the research. When you're ready to blog, you're invited to blog here.

YMedad said...

Hadassa - I saw your comment via email alert, but it doesn't appear here.

Anyway, do you mean I have to wait until all these fervent supporters of Israel and the recreation of Jewish life in Judea and Samaria convert to Judaism? Or is the whole exercise to try to coexist with and work with Christian Zionists as they are within limitations? Since there were a good few Rabbis and hundreds of Orthodox Jews at hi sthree events this week, and the fears were unrealized, can we get back to work?

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Who ever said anything about converting to Judaism? "All" they have to do is abandon their idolatry and stop trying to convert Jews.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

'Hagee is nonetheless outspoken about his belief that "the Jewish people" will "recognize Jesus as the Messiah" at "the end of the Tribulation."'

And I believe that Pinochhio is a real live boy. So what?

I absolutely do not try to make you adopt my belief!

What is Jewish Israel? Is it anything like Schechter's Catholic Israel?

Is the pretentious-sounding "Jewish Israel" site still listed as dangerous?

Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Stranger, if you want to know what the website "Jewish Israel" is all about, just look at it. It's in English.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Hadassa suggested that I should look at the "Jewish Israel" website.

To that suggestion, I repeat that i do not visit websites that are designated as very dangerous. I am also turned off by pretentious names, such as "Jewish Israel."

And since you refuse to answer my question, dear Hadassa, I ask you again what is Jewish Israel? Is it anything like Schechter's Catholic Israel?


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Hadassa said...

Shalom!
Stranger, don't call me dear, you're not related to me.
Jewish Israel is a site that provides anti-missionary information. All sources are carefully quoted and linked. News of missionary activity in Israel and missionaries who target Jews are featured. The actions of missionaries and Jews who support the missionaries through interfaith meetings, conferences, hosting visits, etc. are publicized. How this can be considered dangerous is beyond me.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

Hadassa, I appreciate your admission that you did not understand.

I suspect that you are not a native English speaker; hence your objection to my use of a standard salutation, as well as your writing a run-on sentence.

As I have stated, I make it a point not to visit websites that are marked as dangerous, and certainly not those designated very dangerous.

A Stranger In A Strange Land said...

And since you have repeatedly failed to answer my question, d--r Hadassa, I ask you again: what is "Jewish Israel," and how does it differ from Jewish Israel? Is it anything like Schechter's Catholic Israel?

In what ways is it different?

Does your dangerous website deal with this matter?

Perhaps you could do some research on Catholic Israel in preparation for your response.


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