Wednesday, August 25, 2010

Evangelical crusader map conquers the Jewish world

Posted by Jewish Israel

The Christian evangelizing Jewish Voice Ministries (JVM),directed by Jonathan Bernis, has just unveiled a global crusader map with a spiritual strike capability that appears to rival any physical threat Iran can muster-up (and JVM has already struck a significant number of Jewish souls).

It’s a bit mind-blowing when you view the far-reaching missionary influence of just one evangelical organization, and the map will give you an inkling of the magnitude of the messianic invasion here in Israel.

Take a good look and absorb this very graphic depiction of what some evangelicals perceive and promote as part of “God’s plans for the Jewish people”. And if your eyes are still exclusively set on a physical threat from Persia, then Queen Esther has something to tell you...more


Keli Ata said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
yoni said...

>when I was growing up it was just accepted that Jews who believed in JC were xtian. Jews who didn't were Jews.- keli ata

i dunno, maybe you grew up in israel, where some government department decided, based on the nazi defenition, who a jew is. even the nazis, however agreed with chazal on this- a jew who believes in jc is still a jew. according to the rabbanim, a jew who is sinning, terribly, breaking the 1st commandment- but still a jew. just like all the other jews breaking all the other commandments.

the state of israel decided to add the "and has not converted to another faith" clause. no one else buys it, except for the "other faiths" and our own interior ministry.

ellen said...

Ahhh Yoni,

It seems that the vast majority of Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and secular Jews in Israel and the Diaspora all "buy" it. A non-belief in jesus is a common denominator that unites all Jews.

It appears that in addition to the interior ministry the Israeli secular courts have consistently recognized that Jews who believe in jesus are no longer part of the Jewish collective.

Take the recent Supreme Court decision handled by some Torah observant judges who cited that former Supreme Court President Aharon Barak , “basing himself on solely secular criteria, acknowledged in 1987 that a Jew who believed jesus was a savior had removed himself from the Jewish collective and was, therefore, to be denied Israeli citizenship under the Law of Return.”

yoni said...

"basing himself on solely secular criteria"- exactly.

ellen said...

But in the recent court decision, the justices also based their ruling on Jewish tradition and the concept of teshuva, noting that
"historical studies... showed that Jewish communities throughout the ages sanctioned those members who voluntarily left the fold. These converts to other religions were still considered Jews in the strictly religious sense... Nevertheless, communities throughout the ages regularly ostracized these people, the justices noted, suggesting that in modern Israel the refusal to reinstate citizenship was a legitimate response" to those who had abandoned their faith.

Keli Ata said...

I think I should probably delete my comment but I can't find the little delete icon:(

yoni said...

ellen- if you want to get on that "ostracization" wagon, zie gezhunt, and good luck. nobody said we had to be happy and welcoming to our bretheren who have strayed so far. me, i'm into kiruv rechokim. how about this- you freak them out and lay on some heavy guilt, smack them around a bit, then send them to me. :)

just don't think you're doing it with rabbinic backing. orthodox,conservative, reform, secular or otherwise. perhaps you should look for a job in the interior ministry. dorit beinish will probably back you up. choose your friends carefully, though- she is no friend of the frum.

ellen said...

You don’t know me and and kiruv work I and my family have done and continue to do. The convert, those struggling to be converts, and gentiles with and without inquiring minds are welcome to my home. We simply have one rule:

Don’t try to bring jesus into my home or to my people, or to establish such a belief in my land.

Those individuals who are grappling with the question of jesus are directed to the numerous rabbis, professional counselors, and counter-missionary experts willing to offer a helping hand.

Avraham may have had his tent open on all sides, but there was a Sarah present who – upon seeing destructive behavior and influences – would say, “I will not tolerate this in my house”.

Not always a pleasant task, but it remains the obligation of a Jewish mother throughout the ages (which may be why – outside of conversion – Jewishness is determined by matrilineal descent).

It seems you’re irked by this Jewish mother, the recent decision by some Torah observant judges on Israel’s secular high court, and by the Interior Ministry of the State of Israel.

Does Rambam annoy you too?
Because according to Rambam, it is “the principal object of the Torah and the axis round which it turns, to blot out these opinions [pertaining to avodah zarah] from man's heart and make the existence of idolatry impossible.”(Page 320, Guide for the Perplexed.

Based on the map which is the subject of this post, the Jewish people in Israel are challenged and struggling with their obligation to distance themselves from avodah zara. A belief in jesus as a lord and or savior remains off limits to the Jewish people.

The subject of this post remains a map dissemninated by an evangelical
messianic ministry which aggressively proselytizes the Jewish people. Are you comfortable with that Yoni?

yoni said...

no, ellen, i am not comfortable with idol worship or those who seek to get jews (or anyone else) involved in it. it is for this reason that i am also uncomfortable with the use of untruths to fight it. i am of the opinion that it can and must be fought with the truth, since any small distortion (such as claiming that an idol worshiping jew is no longer a jew at all according to halacha) will backfire. we don't need to lie to the lost sheep to bring them back, l'hefech, the truth sells itself.

as far as attitudes go (not halacha) i agree with you (and sarah emanu) wholeheartedly- we are indeed repulsed by such behavior and beliefs and don't need to try to hide it.

re: the rambam's position- fwiw, you may be interested to know that the rambam lived and worked among muslims, and was quite "soft" on them, proclaiming them monotheists, while being tough on christians- his "hosts" enemies at the time. the ramchal, on the other hand, lived and worked among christians and was quite soft on them, being harsh instead on the islamic faith. both the rambam and the ramchal were put in cherem by the rabbinic leaders of their time.

just thought you might find it interesting. :) i'm on your side against the missionaries, don't worry. i just don't see any need to exxagerate.

yoni said...

btw, i very much respect and appreciate your mashal about avraham and sarah and their different roles. this is a very important dvar torah imho, and i thank you for bringing it up.

Keli Ata said...

Yoni--I don't understand why you feel the need to be so harsh in your replies to my comments.

Honestly, you're using a battering ram to swat a fly. Can't u just disagree?

yoni said...

i don't understand what you mean. what comments? are you also ellen? how am i being harsh? i AM "just disagreeing", in what i hope is a friendly and respectful tone. i'm not sure what you're objecting to, the length of my comments? why can't you just agree? :)

Keli Ata said...

No, I am not Ellen.

I just sensed by the tone of your response to my first comment on this post that you were being harsh. If I misunderstood I apologize.

yoni said...

keli ata, this is not the first time you've accused me of this sort of thing here. "tone" is a hard thing to judge by the written word. i often use sarcasm, or sharp humor, to make a point but i have no intention of offending anyone, rather i operate under the assumption that everyone here is at least as intelligent as i am and understands that i agree with them about most things (otherwise i wouldn't be here). when i object to specific points it's not to insult anyone, rather to spur conversation and clarification. i'm a neighbor of batya's and i would like non-shilonim to understand that we are a diverse group who don't always agree on everything but respect and support each other, and aren't afraid to voice divergent opinions. a blog where everyone agrees about everything and engages in endless mutual back slapping is a boring blog, imo, and an untruthful one.

if i have given you or anyone reason to think that my argumentativeness is based on something more sinister, or that i have anything other than the good of the community in mind, than i apologize. batya and her husband are doing excellent work, in my opinion, and i just want to contribute while remaining true to my own understandings of the things they write about, as a member of the shilo community and the blogging community. i also enjoy your comments. the fact that our writing styles differ shouldn't put us at odds, nor the fact that we don't agree on everything. again, i do not intend insult, except sometimes in a friendly "inter-familial" sort of way, and i hope it's taken like that. a little "spice" isn't a bad thing.

about the subject of this posts comments, which you brought up and then deleted: simply put, i don't believe in threatening or scaring jews away from their heritage with "ostracization" or "excommunication" or anything like that. but i understand there's another side to the story, as ellen pointed out with her avraham/sarah mashal. also, we could get all kabbalistic and talk about the "left hand pushing away while the right hand draws close". so it's not that i don't see your side of things, i just think my side is also valid. k?

ellen said...

Thanks for the clarification, Yoni.
I think the comments on everyones part sort of departed from the point of the post.

I guess I hear so many messianic Christians using the "Nazi definition" of the Jew to lay their claim to Jewishness and their right to spread their faith in Eretz Yisrael,that alarm bells went off for me And yes, there are numerous problems with current Law of Return, the interior ministry and high court.

Keli Ata your comments are always appreciated. In retrospect,I understand Yoni was simply pointing out that a Jew is always a Jew, no matter how much he sins.

As a friend just reminded me,being tossed out of the Jewish community can happen to a murderer or an adulterer, too.

I was just reading Rav Yoseph B. Soloveitchik, z"l last night and he was lamenting years ago how the halacha and a presentation of halacha was not being presented in an enlightened and dynamic way to the general Jewish public. I guess we're paying the price now.