David Forman:
It was one thing many, many decades ago, when Reform and Conservative Judaisms began, and they only rationalized/made excuses for not keeping the Laws of Judaism. If they had just remainded at that stage, they would have remained just Jews who aren't observing all the Mitzvot. That's something that had always been and will always be.
Later, in their institutionalizing-making into official institution their version of Judaism, they began converting non-Jews and defining Judaism, and that's when things began to get very complicated. I'm sorry to say that their Judaism is no more connected to Judaism than Christianity is. It denies too many basic tenets. When they convert someone they owe it to the serious convert to explain that the ceremony only makes them a Reform Jew, not a generic Jew. Otherwise it's misleading advertising. When they tell a Jewish man that his children from a non-Jewish woman are Jewish, they should make it clear that only Reform Jews will accept them and their decedents as Jews.
Forman says:
IN LIGHT of all the above, if, together, the Reform and Conservative movements were to declare themselves a separate religion from Orthodoxy, which in fact they are - perhaps not in some of their ritual and liturgical traditions, but most certainly in their ethical moorings regarding their respectful tolerance and concern for the "other" - the state would have no choice but to grant them the rights and privileges enjoyed by other religions in the country, which would necessarily include control over life-cycle events for their own constituency.
Such a dramatic move would most likely marginalize Orthodoxy. Free of the shackles of Orthodox domination, Reform and Conservative conversion classes would soar...
I disagree with his predictions. Once potential converts realize that they're buying rhinestones rather than diamonds, they'll lose interest in the cheap glass and plastic. Those seriously interested in Judaism and/or being part of the the Jewish People will go for the genuine article.
I'm very glad that Forman admits that Reform Judaism is a separate religion. Finally the truth.
14 comments:
Yes, that's exactly what we need as a people right now! More infighting, recriminations and boasting of who is a real Jew and who isn't.
Those not real Reform Jews give a lot of money to Israeli causes.
Gavriel, it's at times like this when we have to be even more careful about who is claiming to be Jewish. And your last comment isn't true. And if it was, what are we, for sale? I'm not.
I'd like to thank Forman for confirming what I have written occassionally, that reform and conservative are no more representative of Judaism than Jews for Jesus.
As such, one has to ask whether it is the goal or the obligation of the State of Israel to fund Forman's temples and facilities any more than funding Christian messianic congregations or to promote the aliyah of his fellow co-religionists.
Alan Perlman's JPost talkback says pretty much the same thing.
They made a choice. They should live with it - not us.
"Va'chamushim allu Beni Yisrael meh'Eretz Mitzrayim" (Sh'mot 13:18). Read the Medrash.
Wow, I'm really shocked and saddened by the sentiments expressed here. To say that Reform and Conservative Judaism is closer to Jews for J is just silly. Please at least attempt to back up this statement with an example or two. On a side note I wonder if you feel the same about those Chabad members who claim the rebbe is mosiach. They are much closer to Xtianity than reform or Conservative Jews.
My problem with posts like this is they lump all non-Orthodox Jews together as if they are a single group all believing and practicing the same way. That's as silly as saying the same thing about all Orthodox groups.
I'm glad that you are not for sale Batya all that I ask is that you publicize it. If Conservative and Reform Jews aren't real then don't ask them to support the state of Israel.
I'm a Conservative Jew and in the past year I have give money to Meir Panim, Eizer L Shabbos, Hatzolah, ZAKA, and Yad Eliezer.
I guess I'll ask for my money to be returned. I wouldn't want these organizations to be tainted by my inferior money.
Introductory note: it is not I or Batya who suggested treating reform and conservative as another religion. It was Mr. Forman, as reform as they get.
"To say that Reform and Conservative Judaism is closer to Jews for J is just silly."
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I didn't say that. I said that they are no more representative of Judaism than J4J. You can be closer and still not be representative. I stick to my statement.
"Please at least attempt to back up this statement with an example or two."
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I did. See the JPost talkback I linked to.
On a side note I wonder if you feel the same about those Chabad members who claim the rebbe is mosiach. They are much closer to Xtianity than reform or Conservative Jews.
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I agree they are a big halachic problem. Read the book The Rebbe, The Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference.
But the comparisons are apples and oranges and even messiah claims by the vast majority of these Chabadniks do not attribute the Rebbe as a divine physical presence of G-d, unlike Christians who believe Jesus is a divine being, unlike Reform, who can take G-d or leave him, unlike Conservative, who deny Torah from Sinai.
"My problem with posts like this is they lump all non-Orthodox Jews together"
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Again, it is Forman who gave himself the lumps. I did not bring up the suggestion. But I would be more than understanding if his peers took a vote and the majority of such affiliated people voted along with Forman.
Shy, thanks for replying. I'm glad we agree.
Gavriel, please read Forman's article before attacking me.
"Introductory note: it is not I or Batya who suggested treating reform and conservative as another religion"
Yes, but your first post says:
"I'd like to thank Forman for confirming what I have written occassionally, that reform and conservative are no more representative of Judaism than Jews for Jesus."
You may not have introduced it but you endorse it.
Please forgive my misquoting you but the comment you linked to is entitled:
"Christian belief is closer to Judaism than Reform belief, but is nevertheless not Judaism."
Now Batya, back to you not being for sale. If that's the case shouldn't you have a disclaimer at the top of this blog saying non-Orthodox Jews shouldn't read it? I'm quite sure that your your ads are based on traffic, aren't they? Perhaps you are for sale after all.
My point in all this is if you really think that non-O streams don't deserve recognition by the State of Israel, than stand up and say that Reform and C Jews shouldn't visit. That we should stop sending money. That we should stop supporting groups like AIPAC. That we should stop organizing and attending rallies supporting Israel here in the U.S. That we should stop writing our representatives in Congress about Israel, etc.
"You may not have introduced it but you endorse it."
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To an extent, yes. Fact is, what reform and conservative advocate as practice and philosophy is not Judaism. That is ancient news.
"but the comment you linked to is entitled...."
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While I did not say that, I'd like to read your explanation of why that is "just silly." remember, Perlman in his talkback is referring to the belief, not to every individual Jew.
"then stand up and say that Reform and C Jews shouldn't visit."
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That's up to the individual. Remember, we need to distinguish between the individuals and the belief system they may be ever so loosely associated with?
Who's "lumping" now?
"That we should stop sending money."
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Ditto.
"That we should stop supporting groups like AIPAC."
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Ditto, though liberal Jews, so many of whom are associated with reform and consevatives streams, have done an outstanding job of harming Israel even before you posted your threat.
"That we should stop organizing and attending rallies supporting Israel here in the U.S."
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Ditto but thanks for revealing the thinness of Israel's relevance in your world of beliefs.
"That we should stop writing our representatives in Congress about Israel, etc."
Ditto. Now would be a good time to recall the actions - or the lack thereof - of America non-Orthodox Jewish leaders during the holocaust.
Threatening a repeat?
Who has cut themselves off from whom? Nothing new under the sun.
I read the article. I understand that David Froman is saying it.
The point is that you all are basically saying that he is finally admitting what you believe.
So, if in your mind we Reform and Conservative Jews are practicing another religion, should we be allowed to make Aliyah?
It's not the thinness of my belief system I'm revealing. I'm just trying to understand your point of view. So if I don't support the state that you say shouldn't acknowledge me I have a thinness of belief? You can't have it both ways.
Gavriel, I wouldn't have been the first to say any of this. That Forman publicizes it is something you should ask Forman about. If Forman has no problem writing this and you a Reform or Conservative Jew feel yourself a Jew, plain and simple, then you have a problem in your leadership. Maybe it has gone too far from traditional (non-capital letter) Judaism.
Please think about what I just wrote. It's another take entirely on the issue. Many members of Reform/Conservative Judaism are not in agreement with Forman and other official leaders.
I don't want to reduce the Jewish population. I come from a non-observant family.
Understanding by example.
Shy, I love the Facebook connection in your example.
Shalom!
So... I "understand" that at least we're not going to have to deal with the children of a non-Jewish spouse. Or are we? This is not the "nahafohu" (reversal) that Adar is supposed to bring!
Hadassa
Who knows? Strange world.
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