My musings, reflections on life here in Shiloh, Israel. Original, personal, spiritual and political. Peace, security and Israeli sovereignty. While not a "group blog," Shiloh Musings includes the voices of other Jews in The Land of Israel.
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Just like how Gd ordered the tribes that wanted to settle east of the Jordan River to join the kibush liberation of the Land of Israel all Jews must join together to defend the State of Israel.
38 comments:
Mi Ani
said...
The rule is vhigisa bo yomom vlayla. Your comparison doesn't work, because then it was a milchoma Shel mitzvah, whereas, at best, the IDF is a milchomas reshus.
Shouldn't the title be "Outrageous" without the CAPS? :-) But seriously, "shivyon b'nettel" was beginning to happening between the Chareidim & their DL brothers. But what about the Tel-Aviv lefties, the Aviv Geffens, and the Olmert children, & many many others who don't serve in the Army? And why can't the "arab cousins" do Sherut Leumi, at least in their own villages. Something is very wrong here, & when it's pointed out in the form of a peaceful prayer gathering, this is an OUTRAGE???
The IDF defends us all which is high level mitzvah. Instead of a massive rally a solution must be found for the good and unity of all of our Jewish People.
shivyon b'nettel is important. and all those you mentioned who are Jewish should be serving, but Torah Jews are the ones that need to set the example. The fact that one sector is not doing what they should is not a legitimate excuse or reason for another sector to shirk their responsibilities, especially a sector that prides itself on following the Torah, and should therefore be leading in doing what's right.
and who ever said that serving in the IDF doesn't contribute to Limud Torah ? I cannot remember another period of my life where I had to delve so deep into a lot of sugyot to know how to behave and to answers questions from hilonim. Because yes, for most of them too the place where they learn the most about judaism is in the army. So who want to avoid the best place to teach our brethren ???!
Not everyone is strong enough to be able to influence others, and not to be influenced by the others. The IDF is not lacking soldiers, rather it is an attack on lomdei Torah! Torah learning upholds and maintains the Yidden just as much as the IDF, if not more.
I honestly believe that the answer is simple, but the implementation difficult in the current political climate.
Taking my lead from a suggestion by Rav Dov Ber Leib, I think those Hareidim who do not wish to serve in the IDF can do a form of national service.
This can be either "Teaching" - going into schools, universities, care homes, Ulpans etc and giving Shiurim and providing companionship for the elderly who might be lonely. It could be Gemara, or a Parsha Shiur, or some Jewish history or Yiddish folk tales.
Or it can be 'Environmental" - tree planting, street cleaning (Not in an embarrassing way, but in one that prides itself in cleaning and beautifying the environment and land that we will welcome Mashiach into) such as collecting plastic bottles and sending them for re-cycling, or surveying and highlighting broken paving stones which might be a danger to pedestrians, so that a repair team can cone and fix them) which are surely Mitzvot?
As you should all know by now, this is a prayer rally which was/is meant to be just that; Tefilot, Tehilim to annul this decree of criminializing Torah learners and Yeshiva students. This witch hunt is not about conscription alone, but about this present regime's outright hatred towards the religious. The chareidim are a large segment and most obvious, but afterwards,they will be after the Zionist religious, as well as the basic traditional Jew. This is about the deJewizing of the State. Make no mistake.
Mi Ani, the IDF is lacking solider which are Lomdei Torah too. In the Tanakh, each and every war is especially done by the most righteous of all. And without the army, there would be no option of even lilmod Torah at all. And if you fear for other's influence, one more reason to engage as most of possible as religious youths, from which the strongest would uphold the weakest and influence every one else. And exactly as is being done in the yeshivot hesder, the haredi yeshivot can take a few hours a week in order to prepare their students to be a light among the soldiers.
Anonymous of 20:55, No one is criminalizing Limud Torah. Every one who want to do so can. The law is just righting the fact that everyone has to give a few of his years to defend everyone (and yes, I believe too that everyone should learn Torah too). They can learn before and after as much as they want, and the Dati Leumim have proven that you even can learn during the army. I was religious before, during, and after the army. And I have to say the army even made me much more stronger in my faith. And actually, the army has become much more religious friendly in the years, the difficulties nowadays a far less critical than it used to be...
The opinion of my Rav on the subject, which is by far the best I've heard those days : http://youtu.be/WWHs82fBh3w
I disagree with Mi Ani who said that we are not now in a state of milchemet mitzvah. We are surrounded by millions of hostile Arabs, over 20 hostile Arab nations. Defending Israel is not a daily milchemet mitzvah?
Yes, Amihai, it is getting easier today for religious people - and that's precisely why Yair Lapid's move to criminalize Haredim for refusing to serve will do no one any good, and just make things worse. Darn it, the haredim were quietly joining the army - many of them even sacrificing their reputations among their families and communities - or else they have to take their uniforms off so they won't get beat up when they come home - and they were going to make quota, and best of all, they were doing a bang-up job on their missions! - but now all that's ruined. Why? Because Mr. Lapid has shown his true colors - he's just a better-looking and better-spoken version of his father "Tommy" the founder of the Shinui party, as far as I'm concerned, because it seems he hates the haredim as much as his father did.
And this is the crux of it all - he HATES them and will ruin what was going to be a good thing because of his hatred. If this bill passes and gets to be implemented, we'll see it.
Fortunately, too much is happening now - who knows what will happen in 3 years.
Amihai, Shelly and LondonMale make the most sense to me.
This very short post of mine was written on my phone when I had very little time. All the comments are longer, which is great.
The IDF should be a place where all Israelis learn to contribute and be one People. The more Torah scholars in the IDF the better the IDF would be. It should be an example for the Jewish People. That will only happen when everyone contributes. Oops I've used the word again. I guess the influence of the recent Torah Portions make me realize how important it is for us to all work together, Right, Left and Center, Very Torah Observant and less so, too.
Amihai, I am not saying that there are not individuals who are good fits for the IDF, rather the problem is that Lapid and others like him do not properly appreciate the koach HaTorah, as a means of the defense of the Jewish people. In theory more frum soldiers in the IDF would be a good influence on others, yet because the IDF is not being run al pi daas Torah, and in fact the leaders' true desire is to erode the Torah values of the nachal chareidi. As such, the typical ben Torah should only be fighting the milchoma shel Torah within the koselei beis medresh. The hashpaah of their learning should takeh go out and influence all Yidden ľtova.
Anonymous from 22:33, Lapid is really a good strawman, but in truth everything began with the High Court decision, which concluded that the system of automatic ptor is not fair. And you're right, there was a slow improvement, but apparently it was far from enough. And really not fair too. In a way, this is the chance for the Haredim to make a huge Kidush Hashem and prove that they could serve as good as the best with faith and goodwill, and prove everyone else wrong about their egoism. But sadly...
Mi Ani, never anything has ever been achieved from within the Beit Hamidrash. Quite the opposite. Evidently the Beit Hamidrash is the necessary basis for every action, but without leaving its four walls nothing can be done. And your accusation of "the leaders trying to erode the Torah" is from another age, as the everyday improvement can prove. Improvement which have mainly been made by religious boys which have been fighting and studying in the same time. If no one ever need kosher kitchen in a basis, why would the commander even bother thinking about it ? There can be no hashpaa if there is no contact. For purifying tumat met, the cohanim had to take the risk to metame themselves with the ashes. If you want to do the job as you want, you can't blame anyone except yourself if you let someone else does it has he wants...
And finally, so would I have preferred not going to the army and studying without any burden. And yes, a few of my good friends would have stayed religious too had they not enlisted. But in the end of the day, we are all in the same boat. You really can't be that egoist and let others take all the damages.
last Anonymous, I can't see how the blog post of esser agoroth is relevant. This milhemet mitzva isn't only about Eretz Israel. It's about our lives and Clal Israel, and I'm sure he won't agree with that, but with Malhut Israel too, as the Medina is only the name of the big boat of all the jews living on it. And more than that, the value of an army is much more than only fighting war, but this is another topic in the Torah and the Nakh.
Mi Ani - I agree wholeheartedly with you on all the points. Except I would suggest you go to the website of Esser Agaroth.com. He thinks very much like you too. It is a very good website.
Amihai, there is a famous story about Reb Yisroel Salanter in which he lambasted his fellow Yeshivaleit about their shmiras Shabbos. As they were all Shomer Shabbos, the question was raised why Reb Yisroel was mentioning the topic. The answer given was that Reb Yisroel had recently been in France, and they had people there who weren't Shomer Shabbos. Reb Yisroel said that if we would be keeping Shabbos properly, then everyone in France would be keeping Shabbos as well. There definitely is an effect from our learning on those who are not yet frum, and so now is the time to add to our learning, not to weaken it. If you want 'fair' then perhaps the chilonim should be required to spend time learning in a Beis Medresh! We all aspire for the day soon when man will no longer learn the art of war, but instead learn Torah for the sake of Heaven. You claim if not for the IDF then others can't learn? As far as I know, the IDF is a recent phenomenon, whereas people have been learning Torah for thousands of years.
Mi Ani, there are a lot of stories likes this from the aharonei aharonhim. But the fact is, there NO source of this in Tanakh, Mishna, Gemara, Midrashim, Geonim or Rishonim of any mystical effect. Quite the opposite, in Avot they say that any Limud that doesn't induce an action is batel.If you don't bring out what you learned out of the Beit Hamidrash it's as if you learned nothing. As of now, the only effect of those only lomdim torah is most of all one of despise. Because of this egoism of not taking any risk while others risk their lives, the hilonim are disgusted from the Torah. And by the way, I suppose you know what was the point of the 'haredi uniform', that Bne Torah would look good, educated and maneered in the eyes of the world. But today...
And you know, there is even a much miree recent phenomenon than the IDF. It's batei midrash with more than 50 talmidim. And there are hundreds if not thousands of them. Never happenned in the history. The great Yeshivat Volozhin ? At its best some eighty talmidim. And you know the difference ? It's because it's in the state of the jews. So yes, if it wasn't for Tzahal, you wouldn't even be here commenting, and far less been able to study like this. And I have a secret for you. If the Land didn't spill our hilonim brethren out, it must mean that they are doing some great mitzvas which are important enough.
There is a time for war, and then, only then, there is a time for peace. But first, according to the RAMBAM, we have to appoint a King, make war with Amalek, and build the Beit Hamikdash. If you stay between four walls, none of this can't ever be done.
Amihai, you are certainly all over the place! Do you know that Volozhin closed because the authorities wanted to include secular studies within the curriculum? Do you know how many Yeshivos there are in America? The largest Yeshiva in the world is in Lakewood, New Jersey! You speak of egoism as if that is the reason why Bnei Torah want to sit and learn continuously. Why make such a hateful inference? Which gadol ever stated that? Are you saying that it is time to appoint a King over Israel, and begin to eliminate Amalek? Guess what? If you know someone is from Amalek, you should kill him now. No need to wait. The IDF, which many times has placed brother vs. brother is not the vehicle to bring Moshiach with the Beis Hamikdash. And 3 years of service? Is that too not just an arbitrary number? Are the quotas they are asking for also not just arbitrary numbers? Perhaps defending fellow Yidden allows chilonim to remain in Eretz Yisroel until after their stint in the army, but how quickly do they make yeridah afterwards? We all know that the learning of the tinokos shel bais rabban shall not be interrupted even for the building of the Beis Hamikdash. Why? Because kiyum haoloam only is through limud Torah. Without constant learning, the world would immediately revert to sohu v'vohu. You are correct that one should learn in order to do, but do what? Torah, Avodah, and Gemilas chassadim. IDF service or sherut leumi is not a Torah dictate, but rather an invention of a secular government. While there is the concept of dina dmalchusa dina is true, that is only when there is a blanket rule for everyone. In our current situation, with quotas and all, it turns into a targeted attack on bnei Torah, one which demands public outcry. Who is to say whose blood is richer in the eyes of Heaven? We are judged by our efforts, not by accomplishments. Perhaps the weak learner in the back is more precious than the gadol hador in the eyes of Heaven, and yet because of the quota we'll uproot him and put him in the army? That is not a Torah perspective. By the way, ever hear of choni hamagil? The gemara is full of cases where tefillos and learning alone accomplish a lot more than physical actions alone ever could. Think about it.
If I understand it, when the State of Israel was founded, the agreement had to do with a certain number of Torah students being exempt from the army. I don't think they anticipated so many being exempted.
It is indeed outrageous for so many not shouldering their burdens (independent of who else is not), and if there is an exemption it should be for those prodigies who should be exempt. All others should do their service--and it has been pointed out elsewhere that throughout history all Jews were obligated to participate in making a living and fighting in wars.
With all due respect to the haredim, if they live in the State, they have obligations to their fellow Jews and citizens to do their duty, and the fact that they do not seem to want to be part of the general population in this respect is not honorable, but is blatant disrespect to their fellow citizens and the Jewish people.
Batya, kol hakavod! I think this is bringing out a lot of varied opinion on this issue. I respect the ones who are supporting the protests, but I disagree very much with what they are saying.
Sheldan, just as in America there is an exemption for all Rabbinical Studies Students, irregardless of how long they desire to be so, and without any analysis of their prodigal nature, or the numbers of individuals who choose to be so, so too this is normal and natural to expect the same from Israel who prides itself on being a democratic nation in the Western spirit, ie. like America. No one is shirking their duty here, rather it is simply a different battle field that they are fighting on, ie. the battle between Jacob and the angel - that too was a spiritual battle, until the angel saw he was losing, and decided to get physical.
Mi Ani, "Do you know that Volozhin closed because the authorities wanted to include secular studies within the curriculum?" As I've heard it, especially in light of the hashkafa of the Natziv, it's no so much the secular studies themselves which were problematic but the fact that the governement wanted to take controle. And has you can see, the yeshiva closed, so maybe it was much more important not to learn at all then, and that all their learning didn't save them.
"Do you know how many Yeshivos there are in America? The largest Yeshiva in the world is in Lakewood, New Jersey!" First, you're wrong. The largest yeshiva in the world is yeshivat Mir here in Jerusalem. Second, they are much more yeshivot in Israel, and they have been the model for the american one. Third, in the US the "everyone goes to the kollel" is really recent, and not universal at all as most american haredim learned core subjects at school and do works for a living. And, not least of all, you can't seriously compare studying in Eretz Israel with studying in hutz laaretz.
"You speak of egoism as if that is the reason why Bnei Torah want to sit and learn continuously." Now, you are completely deforming what I wrote. The reason this is egoism is not because they want to sit and learn continuously, but because while they ask for this right for themselves, they don't take into consideration everybody else. I don't konw a lot of people who wouldn't prefer to sit and learn instead of spending 3 hard years in the army and risking their lives. So when I hear the excuses like "for their personnal level it's better that they sit and learn", it's the same as saying my little person is more important than the need of the klal, that because for me it's more important that I won't go OTD than risking my life saving everyone else.
"Are you saying that it is time to appoint a King over Israel, and begin to eliminate Amalek?" That was not my point at all (even if I deeply believe that we are progressing toward this). This was just one good exemple of things that can't be done while staying between the 4 walls of the Beit Hamidrash.
"The IDF, which many times has placed brother vs. brother is not the vehicle to bring Moshiach with the Beis Hamikdash." Right, so we need to works to repair the army so that it won't happend again. But on the other side, the main role and main action of the IDF is still saving all of us, fighting everyday for the klal. In the midbar, if Moshe had thought like you (chas veshalom) because we were fighting among us all the time, we wouldn't be here. And then, one of the greatest values of the army, is that everyone risk his life beside all his brothers, religious beside hilonim, rightists beside leftists. It has much more contributed to unite klal israel (like in time of war) than everything else...
"And 3 years of service? Is that too not just an arbitrary number?" It's an assessment according to the number of people needed at a time. Already sixty years ago they wanted to reduced it, but to the day, it wasn't possible. But now, because of the difference of demographics, the enrollement of haredi youth like everyone else would let the governement diminish the service to 2 years if not less. Isn't it egoism that because some don't serve at all the others have to serve more ?
"Are the quotas they are asking for also not just arbitrary numbers" Yes, but don't forget, it's a gigantic gesture in favor of the haredim. According to the law, everyone has to enlist. And in every other group, everyone does enlist (except those which health problems), even if not always at 18. You could say that the quota in the hiloni and dati leumi sectors is about 100%. And don't begin speaking about the arabs, it would be almost like giving weapons to our ennemy. And between jews, "kol israel areivim zeh lazeh".
"Perhaps defending fellow Yidden allows chilonim to remain in Eretz Yisroel until after their stint in the army, but how quickly do they make yeridah afterwards?" And as you can see everyday in Israel, most of the hilonim are still living here, and most of the yordim come back after less than 5 years, and almost none of them doesn't plan to come back sometime.
"We all know that the learning of the tinokos shel bais rabban shall not be interrupted even for the building of the Beis Hamikdash. Why? Because kiyum haoloam only is through limud Torah. Without constant learning, the world would immediately revert to sohu v'vohu." Yes, like we don't mechalelim shabat for the building of the Beit Hamikdash. But when there is pikuah' nefesh, it's even a mitzva to mehalel shabbat. And what you cited is a midrashic interpretation which hasn't any halachical consequence (except regarde the building itself), and it only speak about the "tinokot shel beit raban". And as a matter of fact, the gemara itself brings a few case of period when NO ONE at all was learning Torah.
"You are correct that one should learn in order to do, but do what? Torah, Avodah, and Gemilas chassadim. IDF service or sherut leumi is not a Torah dictate, but rather an invention of a secular government." WHAT ?? First of all, milhemet mitzva, or even pikuach' nefesh if you want is Torah. Sherut Leumi is pure gemilut chassadim, as young people give freely their time in order to help the others, instead of beginning their adult lives. And the Tanakh is full of armies. Have you heard about Sefer Yeoshua for instance ?
"While there is the concept of dina dmalchusa dina is true, that is only when there is a blanket rule for everyone. In our current situation, with quotas and all, it turns into a targeted attack on bnei Torah, one which demands public outcry." WHAT ???!? As I wrote before, the "blanket rule" here is that EVERYONE enlist at 18. And that the problem with the haredim : until now, they have unfairly avoided this. And as I said, they could very well have exiged that the haredim enlist like everyone else (even after a few years of mehin/yeshiva hesder/gavoah), but they have given an automatic ptor to everyone aged 23 and more and exiged a minimal number instead. I really can't see how it is at all something else than asking that the haredim too take part in the army.
"Who is to say whose blood is richer in the eyes of Heaven? We are judged by our efforts, not by accomplishments. Perhaps the weak learner in the back is more precious than the gadol hador in the eyes of Heaven, and yet because of the quota we'll uproot him and put him in the army?" Exactly. And that's why the haredi position is egoist : maybe the one cleaning the street is more precious, so why he has to enlist why the haredi doesn't ? And if no-one ever enlist because of this, what will happenned ? And then, as you can see easily in the Torah, the ones which are leading the wars are not the weak ones who don't know how to learn. Quite the opposite. The fighters are the most righteous of all, the Rosh Yeshiva, Yeoshua and his best talimidim.
"By the way, ever hear of choni hamagil? The gemara is full of cases where tefillos and learning alone accomplish a lot more than physical actions alone ever could." Yeah, while at the same time it's full of cases where it is especially the physical actions which are needed. And "suprisingly", it's often about pikuah' nefesh. If it was only about learning and praying, we could all have been malakhim. Good for us that He created us "to do".
And have you ever read Rashi about when Moshe Rabeinu had to lift is arms up while Yeoshua was fighting ? He write that it was hard because it was almost too much difficult for Moshe that all he wanted was to fight along the others even if he wasn't in conditions.
And finally, a last point. The Halacha, and so does the Torah make it clear, explicitly says that the army has to observe the highest level of values, and that whoever is too much weak has to stay out of the camp. The Haredim should be the first fighting, the one being the exemple for everyone else. They should try to repair the army and put out those who are sinning. But now, to my deepest regret, they are doing the opposite...
One shouldn't forget that one of the reasons, if not the main one, that Ben-Gurion had no problem with exempting the chareidim was because he didn't want them in the IDF. If there had been more chareidim the IDF would have developed a more religious character.
Mi Ani (3/3 @14:37) Loved your response to Amichai (together with your other responses). Yasher Koach! Said everything to the point! Learned one thing that it is almost impossible to change people's minds or their outlooks; that only comes with time and when they eventually learn and see for themselves.
Amihai, your example from Moshe Rabbeinu actually proves my point. When, and only when, the Yidden saw Moshe's hands raised in prayer towards Heaven, were they successful in their battle with Amalek. When his hands were down they would become weak in their emunah and bitachon, and consequently be losing in their fight. We see that success is based on tefillos to Hashem, not that it's my own koach accomplishing. Moshe may have wanted to fight, but that wasn't his role to play. In parsha Yisroel it states 'Vayishma Yisro', and Yisroel heard. What did Yisro hear? Rash"i explains that he heard about krias yam suf and milchemas Amalek. Why did Yisro need to hear about both events before picking himself up from Midyan and moving out to the Midbar? Krias yam suf alone was not inspirational enough, that he needed a second event to prove that Hashem is the real deal? So meforshim explain that really Yisro became a Yid immediately following krias yam suf, but he was going to remain in Midyan. However, after hearing about milchemas Amalek, within which, as I've stated, the emunah and bitachon of the Yidden fluctuated based on the location of Moshe's hands, Yisro realized he can't stay in Midyan and expect to remain an ehrlicher Yid. Everyone has their own role to play. Surely you know of the Yissochor and Zevulun relationship, where each brother does something for the other. I believe that each of the Bnei Torah should have a chayal that they are dedicating their learning to. I believe, as many Rabbonim have instructed, that we all should say kapital mem-vov in Tehillim daily as a zechus that there should be no more fighting in Eretz Yisroel. By learning Torah, bnei Yeshiva are doing their civic duty, and accomplishing their tafkid as well. I want to finish with one last thought. When Rivka emainu went to the Beis Medresh of Shem and Ever to find out what is going on inside her womb, she was told that she was carrying two nations. We don't find her being disturbed any longer that one of her children wanted to get out by Batei Avodah Zarah. Why? The answer is because Esav could have been a man of the world fighting AGAINST the forces of ra. So then why was she worried beforehand? That's because it is unnatural and unhealthy for an individual to be beshlaimus an ish tam yoshev ohalim and at the same time a material person who's into the physical aspects of the world. In today's decadent world we need as many sincere bnei Torah as we can get to help purify us all. Through a true appreciation of our need for bnei Torah, and by doing what we can to be MECHAZEK them, we should all be zoche soon to the day when Hashem will fight for all of us, and we will be silent.
Sorry spell check switched Yisro to Yisroel a couple times. By the way Anon, thanks for the chizuk. I believe that just because I wasn't understood by Amihai so well yet, is not a reason to stop trying. Also, there are many others who'll read my words and hopefully it will be a help for them, at least.
Mi Ani, actually, this episode is the only one when someone is NOT fighting with the others (evidently excluding the leviim which had to take the Aron Habrit, but this is not relevant at all here). And as I said, it wasn't because he shouldn't, only that because of his age he wouldn't be able to do much. And according to Rashi, knowing this didn't prevented him from wanting to go and fight. So are you saying that the haredim view themselves as Moshe ? And that they are so much more "holier" than him that they don't even feel the need to go fighting along their brothers ??!? And I said, in every other battles, the greatest tzadikim where the first on the battle field... So your reasonnement is utter non-sense, trying to find every small and remote perushim in order to try to fix your view, but the pshat is so evident and clear... And again, this iska prove once more that no-one can't just sit while his brothers go to war, otherwise it would'nt have been needed.
"Surely you know of the Yissochor and Zevulun relationship, where each brother does something for the other." Sure, but two point : 1) it wasn't about milhemet mitzva, where every one goes to war 2) as in every relationship, both side have to agree. And you can't morally think that you can force the hilonim in this against their will ?!? Against pure egoism...
"I believe, as many Rabbonim have instructed, that we all should say kapital mem-vov in Tehillim daily as a zechus that there should be no more fighting in Eretz Yisroel." In the Real World here in Israel, almost no haredi community even say once a week a prayer for the well-being of the soldier. In fact, lastly, some have even praid against the army itself...
"That's because it is unnatural and unhealthy for an individual to be beshlaimus an ish tam yoshev ohalim and at the same time a material person who's into the physical aspects of the world." Well, I have a good news and a bad news for you. The bad news is that Yaakov received the benediction of his brother, and wear the "hair" of Essav. And most of the mefarshim clearly and rightly so understand this as Yaakov taking on him to get involved in material matters too, and because it's not its "natural quality", it has to be done in such a strange way. And from then, Yaakov is mostly acting, unifying the Spiritual and the Material in harmony.
"In today's decadent world we need as many sincere bnei Torah as we can get to help purify us all" Sure. But to purify us all, they need to get out toward the others, even if it's risky about their own level, exactly like I wrote 2 days ago about the cohanim have to risk being tmeim while purifying tumat met of an Israel.
"we should all be zoche soon to the day when Hashem will fight for all of us, and we will be silent" I'm sorry if this seems hard, but I have to write it nonetheless : It's kfirah. There are so many things wrong with this sentence. I will only cite a few : -we have been created to be like a partner in the Creation. We do our part, and He his. -we don't somekh al haness. -there won't be silence in the end, quite the opposite.
I notice that you don't even try to answer me, you're just launching some more midrashic interpretations as it fits you...
In the end of the day, you want everyone to recognize the studies of the Bne Torah. And rightfully so. But how can you in the same time, almost in the same sentence, deny all the good the others are doing too ? Again egoism, you're not ready to unite with the rest of the people, you don't want to go towards them, and at the same time you're complaining that they are are doing to you exactly what your are doing to them. It's not by insulting or despising the hilonim that they will even try to respect you, quite the opposite...
And I couldn't resist, I have one last thing to say. The Zevulun Issakhar isn't the ideal situation, more like an arrangement which is temporary more adapted to the situation. As a proof, the ten others tribes are both lomedim and fighting.
But most of all, there is an interresting precedent in the Neviim, in Sefer Malahim, when the Great kingdom is divided in two, Israel and Yehuda. There almost had been a war between the two kings, Yeroboam and Rehavam. Surprisingly, altough they were divided, they both had a "proof" of their rightfullness : both of them had a Navi at their side, naviim which eventually prevented the war. Because at this time we were so much polarized and divided in two, two kings were needed, and should have worked together, not as an ideal but as a temporary solution until they could have been reunification. And you know what were the name of the 2 neviim ? -Ahiya, from the Kingdom of Israel -Shemaya, from the Kingdom of Yehuda And as I'm sure you must know, the name of the Neviim always means a lot about what they represent. So it isn't a surprise that what caracterize the Ten Tribes is from the shoresh "Ah", brother, that is to say they represent the national aspect of the Bne Israel. And so that the "shema", "hear" represent the kingdom of Yehuda with the Beit Hamikdash, the "religious" aspect. So both should have worked together.
Nowadays, we have the incredible opportunity to work together in only ONE state, to reunify everyone without needing separating the Am Israel in 2 (or 3, with us Dati Leumim in the middle)...
Why did only 1/5 leave Mitzrayim? Because not everyone was on the proper level to receive the Torah. Why did the leviyim sit and learn and not help build up Egypt? That's because when Paroh asked for volunteers they stayed in the Beis Medresh. Why did Avraham Avinu charge money from those who wouldn't thank Hashem for the food if it really was Hashem's? Since if the guest couldn't admit to the truth, then he will pay for it. You speak of the IDF as though all their efforts are al pi daas Torah, and then you claim the chareidim should join to show them how to be good soldiers. Bnei Torah belong in the Beis Medresh, nothing to do with egoism. Chareidim are more than happy to have chilonim join them in the Beis Medresh. Of course osek bmitzva potur min hamitzva applies as well. You accuse my statement as being kefira? I'm sorry, what did the IDF do when Sadaam Hussein was raining scuds down on Israel? Nothing. Who protected us? I recommend you read the book "From Our Sealed Rooms", and then tell me that our brawn won us that conflict. We need more people being oseik bTorah, not less, and by the way, oseik means to toil, not to know. Keep these points in mind.
Mi Ani, once again, instead of thinking really and answering, you're just throwing some few drashot from here and there, most of them not at all halachikal, without even truly understanding them...
"Why did only 1/5 leave Mitzrayim? Because not everyone was on the proper level to receive the Torah." This is one of a lot of explanations. And personnaly I believe in this subject that they are all correct, and are interwindled. But I won't ever bother. I'll begin with the fact that even non-israeli, the Erev Rav, left and was able too to receive Torah, which make your explanation lacking much to be satisfying. Nowaday, every Israeli, like all jews has "left mistrayim", even if it's only by zehut avot. So he too has the level for the Torah. So how can you even think about preventing him from learning from you ????
"Why did the leviyim sit and learn and not help build up Egypt? That's because when Paroh asked for volunteers they stayed in the Beis Medresh." This is just false. Probably from a very bad translation. Which make me fear for you, especially because of how you much you interpreted a false source. After a few research, I found the original source, in the Rambam, hilchot A"kum, first perek, halacha 3 (I translate almost word to word) : "Until the days were lenghtened of Israel in Mitzrayim, and they returned to learn their actions and to idolate the stars. Except the tribe of Levi, which had keeped the mitzvot. And never has the tribe of Lebi idolated the stars." Not quite what you thought.
"Why did Avraham Avinu charge money from those who wouldn't thank Hashem for the food if it really was Hashem's? Since if the guest couldn't admit to the truth, then he will pay for it." I'm sure the antisemites out there are loving your interpretation. But if you want to keep it like this, without entering in any precisions, here is its application to our situation. It's Avraham who decided that he can't ask money for him hosting and giving meal. Not the guests who decide that they don't have to pay for it. So when soldiers are on the field and risking their lives, it's their choice if they want that "you pay for the meal", not your's to impose. Yeah, right, here again, we see once again the egoism in your position.
"You speak of the IDF as though all their efforts are al pi daas Torah" I never wrote a thing like this. It's the ideal, but because some of the followers of "daas Torah" are not involved, then there is no reason for the army to care about it all.
"and then you claim the chareidim should join to show them how to be good soldiers." And now you can understand this perfectly after I corrected your grand deforming of my words.
"Bnei Torah belong in the Beis Medresh, nothing to do with egoism. " Does you even read what I write ? The egoism is not because they belong in the Beit Midrash, it's because for illegitimate reasons, they avoid enlisting. As I wrote again and again, someone has to do the job. There is no reason that some can avoid it because of "personnal interrests", which is a reason that is as much valable for anyone else : everyone is much better alive and not taking any risk after all. So yes, it's a huge egoism to say "we don't want to take a risk, even one so small as going OTD", while others are forced to risk their lives. And so a Hillul Hashem, because now people see Limud Torah has a way avoiding sharing the risk like everyone else.
"Chareidim are more than happy to have chilonim join them in the Beis Medresh." So bring a small Beit Midrash with you in the army, enlist in group like we do in yeshivot hesder, so you would have a lot of interrested hilonim who will want to learn with you. Right now, you're sending exactly the opposite message by looking like a group who only cares about the religious practice of their own kids without caring for even the lives of their others brethren.
"Of course osek bmitzva potur min hamitzva applies as well." Yeah, and because you're wearing tsitsyot you don't have to do anything else at all. The true halacha here is that if you can, you have to do any mitzvot you can. After all, the Haredim so much love and value the multiplication of mitzvot, and with hidur (!!!), so they should be and rightfully so the first to jump at the occasion of saving the lives of millions of people !!!
Y"ou accuse my statement as being kefira? I'm sorry, what did the IDF do when Sadaam Hussein was raining scuds down on Israel? Nothing." And here is the General Rule : when you're sick, you look for a physician. When you want a boat, you look for a carpenter. When you have to deal geo-golitics and millitary strategy, you need politicians and generals. In the Gulf War, had Israel joined the fight, the coalition would have collapsed and a must bigger and dangerous war would have came.
"Who protected us? I recommend you read the book "From Our Sealed Rooms", and then tell me that our brawn won us that conflict." I don't need to read another book to understand what the Torah say so clearly. We protected ourselves with divine help, we were His own tools. As I wrote, we are here to be a partner in His creation.
"We need more people being oseik bTorah, not less, and by the way, oseik means to toil, not to know. Keep these points in mind." Always. But sometimes, there are more urgent needs. Especially when the Torah itself cleary required that the one doing it are the greatest Talmide Hachamim and Tzadikim.
I still have the hope that you'll read and think about what I wrote instead of looking for more small interpretations here and there to throw like this. But well, if they all are like the Rambam completly deformed, I'll be really happy to rectify !
38 comments:
The rule is vhigisa bo yomom vlayla. Your comparison doesn't work, because then it was a milchoma Shel mitzvah, whereas, at best, the IDF is a milchomas reshus.
Shouldn't the title be "Outrageous" without the CAPS? :-)
But seriously, "shivyon b'nettel" was beginning to happening between the Chareidim & their DL brothers. But what about the Tel-Aviv lefties, the Aviv Geffens, and the Olmert children, & many many others who don't serve in the Army? And why can't the "arab cousins" do Sherut Leumi, at least in their own villages. Something is very wrong here, & when it's pointed out in the form of a peaceful prayer gathering, this is an OUTRAGE???
The IDF defends us all which is high level mitzvah.
Instead of a massive rally a solution must be found for the good and unity of all of our Jewish People.
shivyon b'nettel is important. and all those you mentioned who are Jewish should be serving, but Torah Jews are the ones that need to set the example. The fact that one sector is not doing what they should is not a legitimate excuse or reason for another sector to shirk their responsibilities, especially a sector that prides itself on following the Torah, and should therefore be leading in doing what's right.
and who ever said that serving in the IDF doesn't contribute to Limud Torah ?
I cannot remember another period of my life where I had to delve so deep into a lot of sugyot to know how to behave and to answers questions from hilonim.
Because yes, for most of them too the place where they learn the most about judaism is in the army.
So who want to avoid the best place to teach our brethren ???!
Not everyone is strong enough to be able to influence others, and not to be influenced by the others. The IDF is not lacking soldiers, rather it is an attack on lomdei Torah! Torah learning upholds and maintains the Yidden just as much as the IDF, if not more.
I honestly believe that the answer is simple, but the implementation difficult in the current political climate.
Taking my lead from a suggestion by Rav Dov Ber Leib, I think those Hareidim who do not wish to serve in the IDF can do a form of national service.
This can be either "Teaching" - going into schools, universities, care homes, Ulpans etc and giving Shiurim and providing companionship for the elderly who might be lonely. It could be Gemara, or a Parsha Shiur, or some Jewish history or Yiddish folk tales.
Or it can be 'Environmental" - tree planting, street cleaning (Not in an embarrassing way, but in one that prides itself in cleaning and beautifying the environment and land that we will welcome Mashiach into) such as collecting plastic bottles and sending them for re-cycling, or surveying and highlighting broken paving stones which might be a danger to pedestrians, so that a repair team can cone and fix them) which are surely Mitzvot?
As you should all know by now, this is a prayer rally which was/is meant to be just that; Tefilot, Tehilim to annul this decree of criminializing Torah learners and Yeshiva students. This witch hunt is not about conscription alone, but about this present regime's outright hatred towards the religious. The chareidim are a large segment and most obvious, but afterwards,they will be after the Zionist religious, as well as the basic traditional Jew. This is about the deJewizing of the State. Make no mistake.
The only commenters I can agree with here are Mi Ani and the last Anonymous. The others seem not to understand the plain truth.
Mi Ani,
the IDF is lacking solider which are Lomdei Torah too. In the Tanakh, each and every war is especially done by the most righteous of all.
And without the army, there would be no option of even lilmod Torah at all.
And if you fear for other's influence, one more reason to engage as most of possible as religious youths, from which the strongest would uphold the weakest and influence every one else. And exactly as is being done in the yeshivot hesder, the haredi yeshivot can take a few hours a week in order to prepare their students to be a light among the soldiers.
Anonymous of 20:55,
No one is criminalizing Limud Torah. Every one who want to do so can. The law is just righting the fact that everyone has to give a few of his years to defend everyone (and yes, I believe too that everyone should learn Torah too). They can learn before and after as much as they want, and the Dati Leumim have proven that you even can learn during the army. I was religious before, during, and after the army. And I have to say the army even made me much more stronger in my faith.
And actually, the army has become much more religious friendly in the years, the difficulties nowadays a far less critical than it used to be...
The opinion of my Rav on the subject, which is by far the best I've heard those days :
http://youtu.be/WWHs82fBh3w
I disagree with Mi Ani who said that we are not now in a state of milchemet mitzvah. We are surrounded by millions of hostile Arabs, over 20 hostile Arab nations. Defending Israel is not a daily milchemet mitzvah?
Yes, Amihai, it is getting easier today for religious people - and that's precisely why Yair Lapid's move to criminalize Haredim for refusing to serve will do no one any good, and just make things worse. Darn it, the haredim were quietly joining the army - many of them even sacrificing their reputations among their families and communities - or else they have to take their uniforms off so they won't get beat up when they come home - and they were going to make quota, and best of all, they were doing a bang-up job on their missions! - but now all that's ruined. Why? Because Mr. Lapid has shown his true colors - he's just a better-looking and better-spoken version of his father "Tommy" the founder of the Shinui party, as far as I'm concerned, because it seems he hates the haredim as much as his father did.
And this is the crux of it all - he HATES them and will ruin what was going to be a good thing because of his hatred. If this bill passes and gets to be implemented, we'll see it.
Fortunately, too much is happening now - who knows what will happen in 3 years.
CDG, Yerushalayim
Amihai, Shelly and LondonMale make the most sense to me.
This very short post of mine was written on my phone when I had very little time. All the comments are longer, which is great.
The IDF should be a place where all Israelis learn to contribute and be one People. The more Torah scholars in the IDF the better the IDF would be. It should be an example for the Jewish People. That will only happen when everyone contributes. Oops I've used the word again. I guess the influence of the recent Torah Portions make me realize how important it is for us to all work together, Right, Left and Center, Very Torah Observant and less so, too.
Amihai, I am not saying that there are not individuals who are good fits for the IDF, rather the problem is that Lapid and others like him do not properly appreciate the koach HaTorah, as a means of the defense of the Jewish people. In theory more frum soldiers in the IDF would be a good influence on others, yet because the IDF is not being run al pi daas Torah, and in fact the leaders' true desire is to erode the Torah values of the nachal chareidi. As such, the typical ben Torah should only be fighting the milchoma shel Torah within the koselei beis medresh. The hashpaah of their learning should takeh go out and influence all Yidden ľtova.
See http://esseragaroth.blogspot.com/ for an excellent take on this.
Anonymous from 22:33,
Lapid is really a good strawman, but in truth everything began with the High Court decision, which concluded that the system of automatic ptor is not fair. And you're right, there was a slow improvement, but apparently it was far from enough. And really not fair too.
In a way, this is the chance for the Haredim to make a huge Kidush Hashem and prove that they could serve as good as the best with faith and goodwill, and prove everyone else wrong about their egoism. But sadly...
Mi Ani,
never anything has ever been achieved from within the Beit Hamidrash. Quite the opposite. Evidently the Beit Hamidrash is the necessary basis for every action, but without leaving its four walls nothing can be done.
And your accusation of "the leaders trying to erode the Torah" is from another age, as the everyday improvement can prove. Improvement which have mainly been made by religious boys which have been fighting and studying in the same time.
If no one ever need kosher kitchen in a basis, why would the commander even bother thinking about it ?
There can be no hashpaa if there is no contact. For purifying tumat met, the cohanim had to take the risk to metame themselves with the ashes.
If you want to do the job as you want, you can't blame anyone except yourself if you let someone else does it has he wants...
And finally, so would I have preferred not going to the army and studying without any burden. And yes, a few of my good friends would have stayed religious too had they not enlisted. But in the end of the day, we are all in the same boat. You really can't be that egoist and let others take all the damages.
last Anonymous,
I can't see how the blog post of esser agoroth is relevant. This milhemet mitzva isn't only about Eretz Israel. It's about our lives and Clal Israel, and I'm sure he won't agree with that, but with Malhut Israel too, as the Medina is only the name of the big boat of all the jews living on it.
And more than that, the value of an army is much more than only fighting war, but this is another topic in the Torah and the Nakh.
Mi Ani - I agree wholeheartedly with you on all the points. Except I would suggest you go to the website of Esser Agaroth.com. He thinks very much like you too. It is a very good website.
For the sake of the unity of Am Yisrael, we must work together. I saw yesterday's demonstration as anti-unity.
Amihai, thanks for your comments.
Amihai, there is a famous story about Reb Yisroel Salanter in which he lambasted his fellow Yeshivaleit about their shmiras Shabbos. As they were all Shomer Shabbos, the question was raised why Reb Yisroel was mentioning the topic. The answer given was that Reb Yisroel had recently been in France, and they had people there who weren't Shomer Shabbos. Reb Yisroel said that if we would be keeping Shabbos properly, then everyone in France would be keeping Shabbos as well. There definitely is an effect from our learning on those who are not yet frum, and so now is the time to add to our learning, not to weaken it. If you want 'fair' then perhaps the chilonim should be required to spend time learning in a Beis Medresh! We all aspire for the day soon when man will no longer learn the art of war, but instead learn Torah for the sake of Heaven. You claim if not for the IDF then others can't learn? As far as I know, the IDF is a recent phenomenon, whereas people have been learning Torah for thousands of years.
Mi Ani, there are a lot of stories likes this from the aharonei aharonhim. But the fact is, there NO source of this in Tanakh, Mishna, Gemara, Midrashim, Geonim or Rishonim of any mystical effect. Quite the opposite, in Avot they say that any Limud that doesn't induce an action is batel.If you don't bring out what you learned out of the Beit Hamidrash it's as if you learned nothing.
As of now, the only effect of those only lomdim torah is most of all one of despise. Because of this egoism of not taking any risk while others risk their lives, the hilonim are disgusted from the Torah.
And by the way, I suppose you know what was the point of the 'haredi uniform', that Bne Torah would look good, educated and maneered in the eyes of the world. But today...
And you know, there is even a much miree recent phenomenon than the IDF. It's batei midrash with more than 50 talmidim. And there are hundreds if not thousands of them. Never happenned in the history. The great Yeshivat Volozhin ? At its best some eighty talmidim. And you know the difference ? It's because it's in the state of the jews. So yes, if it wasn't for Tzahal, you wouldn't even be here commenting, and far less been able to study like this.
And I have a secret for you. If the Land didn't spill our hilonim brethren out, it must mean that they are doing some great mitzvas which are important enough.
There is a time for war, and then, only then, there is a time for peace. But first, according to the RAMBAM, we have to appoint a King, make war with Amalek, and build the Beit Hamikdash. If you stay between four walls, none of this can't ever be done.
Amihai, you are certainly all over the place! Do you know that Volozhin closed because the authorities wanted to include secular studies within the curriculum? Do you know how many Yeshivos there are in America? The largest Yeshiva in the world is in Lakewood, New Jersey! You speak of egoism as if that is the reason why Bnei Torah want to sit and learn continuously. Why make such a hateful inference? Which gadol ever stated that? Are you saying that it is time to appoint a King over Israel, and begin to eliminate Amalek? Guess what? If you know someone is from Amalek, you should kill him now. No need to wait. The IDF, which many times has placed brother vs. brother is not the vehicle to bring Moshiach with the Beis Hamikdash. And 3 years of service? Is that too not just an arbitrary number? Are the quotas they are asking for also not just arbitrary numbers? Perhaps defending fellow Yidden allows chilonim to remain in Eretz Yisroel until after their stint in the army, but how quickly do they make yeridah afterwards? We all know that the learning of the tinokos shel bais rabban shall not be interrupted even for the building of the Beis Hamikdash. Why? Because kiyum haoloam only is through limud Torah. Without constant learning, the world would immediately revert to sohu v'vohu. You are correct that one should learn in order to do, but do what? Torah, Avodah, and Gemilas chassadim. IDF service or sherut leumi is not a Torah dictate, but rather an invention of a secular government. While there is the concept of dina dmalchusa dina is true, that is only when there is a blanket rule for everyone. In our current situation, with quotas and all, it turns into a targeted attack on bnei Torah, one which demands public outcry. Who is to say whose blood is richer in the eyes of Heaven? We are judged by our efforts, not by accomplishments. Perhaps the weak learner in the back is more precious than the gadol hador in the eyes of Heaven, and yet because of the quota we'll uproot him and put him in the army? That is not a Torah perspective. By the way, ever hear of choni hamagil? The gemara is full of cases where tefillos and learning alone accomplish a lot more than physical actions alone ever could. Think about it.
If I understand it, when the State of Israel was founded, the agreement had to do with a certain number of Torah students being exempt from the army. I don't think they anticipated so many being exempted.
It is indeed outrageous for so many not shouldering their burdens (independent of who else is not), and if there is an exemption it should be for those prodigies who should be exempt. All others should do their service--and it has been pointed out elsewhere that throughout history all Jews were obligated to participate in making a living and fighting in wars.
With all due respect to the haredim, if they live in the State, they have obligations to their fellow Jews and citizens to do their duty, and the fact that they do not seem to want to be part of the general population in this respect is not honorable, but is blatant disrespect to their fellow citizens and the Jewish people.
Batya, kol hakavod! I think this is bringing out a lot of varied opinion on this issue. I respect the ones who are supporting the protests, but I disagree very much with what they are saying.
Sheldan, just as in America there is an exemption for all Rabbinical Studies Students, irregardless of how long they desire to be so, and without any analysis of their prodigal nature, or the numbers of individuals who choose to be so, so too this is normal and natural to expect the same from Israel who prides itself on being a democratic nation in the Western spirit, ie. like America. No one is shirking their duty here, rather it is simply a different battle field that they are fighting on, ie. the battle between Jacob and the angel - that too was a spiritual battle, until the angel saw he was losing, and decided to get physical.
Sheldan it is a complex issue.
Mi ani Israel is not the USA and it is dangerous to make policy as if it is
Mi Ani,
"Do you know that Volozhin closed because the authorities wanted to include secular studies within the curriculum?"
As I've heard it, especially in light of the hashkafa of the Natziv, it's no so much the secular studies themselves which were problematic but the fact that the governement wanted to take controle.
And has you can see, the yeshiva closed, so maybe it was much more important not to learn at all then, and that all their learning didn't save them.
"Do you know how many Yeshivos there are in America? The largest Yeshiva in the world is in Lakewood, New Jersey!"
First, you're wrong. The largest yeshiva in the world is yeshivat Mir here in Jerusalem.
Second, they are much more yeshivot in Israel, and they have been the model for the american one.
Third, in the US the "everyone goes to the kollel" is really recent, and not universal at all as most american haredim learned core subjects at school and do works for a living.
And, not least of all, you can't seriously compare studying in Eretz Israel with studying in hutz laaretz.
"You speak of egoism as if that is the reason why Bnei Torah want to sit and learn continuously."
Now, you are completely deforming what I wrote. The reason this is egoism is not because they want to sit and learn continuously, but because while they ask for this right for themselves, they don't take into consideration everybody else. I don't konw a lot of people who wouldn't prefer to sit and learn instead of spending 3 hard years in the army and risking their lives. So when I hear the excuses like "for their personnal level it's better that they sit and learn", it's the same as saying my little person is more important than the need of the klal, that because for me it's more important that I won't go OTD than risking my life saving everyone else.
"Are you saying that it is time to appoint a King over Israel, and begin to eliminate Amalek?"
That was not my point at all (even if I deeply believe that we are progressing toward this). This was just one good exemple of things that can't be done while staying between the 4 walls of the Beit Hamidrash.
"The IDF, which many times has placed brother vs. brother is not the vehicle to bring Moshiach with the Beis Hamikdash."
Right, so we need to works to repair the army so that it won't happend again. But on the other side, the main role and main action of the IDF is still saving all of us, fighting everyday for the klal.
In the midbar, if Moshe had thought like you (chas veshalom) because we were fighting among us all the time, we wouldn't be here.
And then, one of the greatest values of the army, is that everyone risk his life beside all his brothers, religious beside hilonim, rightists beside leftists. It has much more contributed to unite klal israel (like in time of war) than everything else...
"And 3 years of service? Is that too not just an arbitrary number?"
It's an assessment according to the number of people needed at a time.
Already sixty years ago they wanted to reduced it, but to the day, it wasn't possible. But now, because of the difference of demographics, the enrollement of haredi youth like everyone else would let the governement diminish the service to 2 years if not less. Isn't it egoism that because some don't serve at all the others have to serve more ?
"Are the quotas they are asking for also not just arbitrary numbers"
Yes, but don't forget, it's a gigantic gesture in favor of the haredim. According to the law, everyone has to enlist. And in every other group, everyone does enlist (except those which health problems), even if not always at 18. You could say that the quota in the hiloni and dati leumi sectors is about 100%.
And don't begin speaking about the arabs, it would be almost like giving weapons to our ennemy. And between jews, "kol israel areivim zeh lazeh".
Part 2
"Perhaps defending fellow Yidden allows chilonim to remain in Eretz Yisroel until after their stint in the army, but how quickly do they make yeridah afterwards?"
And as you can see everyday in Israel, most of the hilonim are still living here, and most of the yordim come back after less than 5 years, and almost none of them doesn't plan to come back sometime.
"We all know that the learning of the tinokos shel bais rabban shall not be interrupted even for the building of the Beis Hamikdash. Why? Because kiyum haoloam only is through limud Torah. Without constant learning, the world would immediately revert to sohu v'vohu."
Yes, like we don't mechalelim shabat for the building of the Beit Hamikdash. But when there is pikuah' nefesh, it's even a mitzva to mehalel shabbat.
And what you cited is a midrashic interpretation which hasn't any halachical consequence (except regarde the building itself), and it only speak about the "tinokot shel beit raban". And as a matter of fact, the gemara itself brings a few case of period when NO ONE at all was learning Torah.
"You are correct that one should learn in order to do, but do what? Torah, Avodah, and Gemilas chassadim. IDF service or sherut leumi is not a Torah dictate, but rather an invention of a secular government."
WHAT ??
First of all, milhemet mitzva, or even pikuach' nefesh if you want is Torah. Sherut Leumi is pure gemilut chassadim, as young people give freely their time in order to help the others, instead of beginning their adult lives.
And the Tanakh is full of armies. Have you heard about Sefer Yeoshua for instance ?
"While there is the concept of dina dmalchusa dina is true, that is only when there is a blanket rule for everyone. In our current situation, with quotas and all, it turns into a targeted attack on bnei Torah, one which demands public outcry."
WHAT ???!?
As I wrote before, the "blanket rule" here is that EVERYONE enlist at 18. And that the problem with the haredim : until now, they have unfairly avoided this. And as I said, they could very well have exiged that the haredim enlist like everyone else (even after a few years of mehin/yeshiva hesder/gavoah), but they have given an automatic ptor to everyone aged 23 and more and exiged a minimal number instead. I really can't see how it is at all something else than asking that the haredim too take part in the army.
"Who is to say whose blood is richer in the eyes of Heaven? We are judged by our efforts, not by accomplishments. Perhaps the weak learner in the back is more precious than the gadol hador in the eyes of Heaven, and yet because of the quota we'll uproot him and put him in the army?"
Exactly. And that's why the haredi position is egoist : maybe the one cleaning the street is more precious, so why he has to enlist why the haredi doesn't ?
And if no-one ever enlist because of this, what will happenned ?
And then, as you can see easily in the Torah, the ones which are leading the wars are not the weak ones who don't know how to learn. Quite the opposite. The fighters are the most righteous of all, the Rosh Yeshiva, Yeoshua and his best talimidim.
part 3
"By the way, ever hear of choni hamagil? The gemara is full of cases where tefillos and learning alone accomplish a lot more than physical actions alone ever could."
Yeah, while at the same time it's full of cases where it is especially the physical actions which are needed. And "suprisingly", it's often about pikuah' nefesh. If it was only about learning and praying, we could all have been malakhim.
Good for us that He created us "to do".
And have you ever read Rashi about when Moshe Rabeinu had to lift is arms up while Yeoshua was fighting ? He write that it was hard because it was almost too much difficult for Moshe that all he wanted was to fight along the others even if he wasn't in conditions.
And finally, a last point. The Halacha, and so does the Torah make it clear, explicitly says that the army has to observe the highest level of values, and that whoever is too much weak has to stay out of the camp. The Haredim should be the first fighting, the one being the exemple for everyone else. They should try to repair the army and put out those who are sinning. But now, to my deepest regret, they are doing the opposite...
Amihai, thanks for writing such wise words.
One shouldn't forget that one of the reasons, if not the main one, that Ben-Gurion had no problem with exempting the chareidim was because he didn't want them in the IDF. If there had been more chareidim the IDF would have developed a more religious character.
Mi Ani (3/3 @14:37) Loved your response to Amichai (together with your other responses). Yasher Koach! Said everything to the point! Learned one thing that it is almost impossible to change people's minds or their outlooks; that only comes with time and when they eventually learn and see for themselves.
Amihai, your example from Moshe Rabbeinu actually proves my point. When, and only when, the Yidden saw Moshe's hands raised in prayer towards Heaven, were they successful in their battle with Amalek. When his hands were down they would become weak in their emunah and bitachon, and consequently be losing in their fight. We see that success is based on tefillos to Hashem, not that it's my own koach accomplishing. Moshe may have wanted to fight, but that wasn't his role to play. In parsha Yisroel it states 'Vayishma Yisro', and Yisroel heard. What did Yisro hear? Rash"i explains that he heard about krias yam suf and milchemas Amalek. Why did Yisro need to hear about both events before picking himself up from Midyan and moving out to the Midbar? Krias yam suf alone was not inspirational enough, that he needed a second event to prove that Hashem is the real deal? So meforshim explain that really Yisro became a Yid immediately following krias yam suf, but he was going to remain in Midyan. However, after hearing about milchemas Amalek, within which, as I've stated, the emunah and bitachon of the Yidden fluctuated based on the location of Moshe's hands, Yisro realized he can't stay in Midyan and expect to remain an ehrlicher Yid. Everyone has their own role to play. Surely you know of the Yissochor and Zevulun relationship, where each brother does something for the other. I believe that each of the Bnei Torah should have a chayal that they are dedicating their learning to. I believe, as many Rabbonim have instructed, that we all should say kapital mem-vov in Tehillim daily as a zechus that there should be no more fighting in Eretz Yisroel. By learning Torah, bnei Yeshiva are doing their civic duty, and accomplishing their tafkid as well. I want to finish with one last thought. When Rivka emainu went to the Beis Medresh of Shem and Ever to find out what is going on inside her womb, she was told that she was carrying two nations. We don't find her being disturbed any longer that one of her children wanted to get out by Batei Avodah Zarah. Why? The answer is because Esav could have been a man of the world fighting AGAINST the forces of ra. So then why was she worried beforehand? That's because it is unnatural and unhealthy for an individual to be beshlaimus an ish tam yoshev ohalim and at the same time a material person who's into the physical aspects of the world. In today's decadent world we need as many sincere bnei Torah as we can get to help purify us all. Through a true appreciation of our need for bnei Torah, and by doing what we can to be MECHAZEK them, we should all be zoche soon to the day when Hashem will fight for all of us, and we will be silent.
Sorry spell check switched Yisro to Yisroel a couple times. By the way Anon, thanks for the chizuk. I believe that just because I wasn't understood by Amihai so well yet, is not a reason to stop trying. Also, there are many others who'll read my words and hopefully it will be a help for them, at least.
Mi Ani,
actually, this episode is the only one when someone is NOT fighting with the others (evidently excluding the leviim which had to take the Aron Habrit, but this is not relevant at all here). And as I said, it wasn't because he shouldn't, only that because of his age he wouldn't be able to do much. And according to Rashi, knowing this didn't prevented him from wanting to go and fight.
So are you saying that the haredim view themselves as Moshe ? And that they are so much more "holier" than him that they don't even feel the need to go fighting along their brothers ??!?
And I said, in every other battles, the greatest tzadikim where the first on the battle field...
So your reasonnement is utter non-sense, trying to find every small and remote perushim in order to try to fix your view, but the pshat is so evident and clear...
And again, this iska prove once more that no-one can't just sit while his brothers go to war, otherwise it would'nt have been needed.
"Surely you know of the Yissochor and Zevulun relationship, where each brother does something for the other."
Sure, but two point :
1) it wasn't about milhemet mitzva, where every one goes to war
2) as in every relationship, both side have to agree. And you can't morally think that you can force the hilonim in this against their will ?!? Against pure egoism...
"I believe, as many Rabbonim have instructed, that we all should say kapital mem-vov in Tehillim daily as a zechus that there should be no more fighting in Eretz Yisroel."
In the Real World here in Israel, almost no haredi community even say once a week a prayer for the well-being of the soldier.
In fact, lastly, some have even praid against the army itself...
"That's because it is unnatural and unhealthy for an individual to be beshlaimus an ish tam yoshev ohalim and at the same time a material person who's into the physical aspects of the world."
Well, I have a good news and a bad news for you.
The bad news is that Yaakov received the benediction of his brother, and wear the "hair" of Essav. And most of the mefarshim clearly and rightly so understand this as Yaakov taking on him to get involved in material matters too, and because it's not its "natural quality", it has to be done in such a strange way. And from then, Yaakov is mostly acting, unifying the Spiritual and the Material in harmony.
"In today's decadent world we need as many sincere bnei Torah as we can get to help purify us all"
Sure. But to purify us all, they need to get out toward the others, even if it's risky about their own level, exactly like I wrote 2 days ago about the cohanim have to risk being tmeim while purifying tumat met of an Israel.
"we should all be zoche soon to the day when Hashem will fight for all of us, and we will be silent"
I'm sorry if this seems hard, but I have to write it nonetheless :
It's kfirah.
There are so many things wrong with this sentence.
I will only cite a few :
-we have been created to be like a partner in the Creation. We do our part, and He his.
-we don't somekh al haness.
-there won't be silence in the end, quite the opposite.
I notice that you don't even try to answer me, you're just launching some more midrashic interpretations as it fits you...
In the end of the day, you want everyone to recognize the studies of the Bne Torah. And rightfully so. But how can you in the same time, almost in the same sentence, deny all the good the others are doing too ?
Again egoism, you're not ready to unite with the rest of the people, you don't want to go towards them, and at the same time you're complaining that they are are doing to you exactly what your are doing to them.
It's not by insulting or despising the hilonim that they will even try to respect you, quite the opposite...
And I couldn't resist, I have one last thing to say.
The Zevulun Issakhar isn't the ideal situation, more like an arrangement which is temporary more adapted to the situation. As a proof, the ten others tribes are both lomedim and fighting.
But most of all, there is an interresting precedent in the Neviim, in Sefer Malahim, when the Great kingdom is divided in two, Israel and Yehuda. There almost had been a war between the two kings, Yeroboam and Rehavam. Surprisingly, altough they were divided, they both had a "proof" of their rightfullness : both of them had a Navi at their side, naviim which eventually prevented the war.
Because at this time we were so much polarized and divided in two, two kings were needed, and should have worked together, not as an ideal but as a temporary solution until they could have been reunification.
And you know what were the name of the 2 neviim ?
-Ahiya, from the Kingdom of Israel
-Shemaya, from the Kingdom of Yehuda
And as I'm sure you must know, the name of the Neviim always means a lot about what they represent.
So it isn't a surprise that what caracterize the Ten Tribes is from the shoresh "Ah", brother, that is to say they represent the national aspect of the Bne Israel. And so that the "shema", "hear" represent the kingdom of Yehuda with the Beit Hamikdash, the "religious" aspect.
So both should have worked together.
Nowadays, we have the incredible opportunity to work together in only ONE state, to reunify everyone without needing separating the Am Israel in 2 (or 3, with us Dati Leumim in the middle)...
Amihai, thanks for your comment, amen
Why did only 1/5 leave Mitzrayim? Because not everyone was on the proper level to receive the Torah. Why did the leviyim sit and learn and not help build up Egypt? That's because when Paroh asked for volunteers they stayed in the Beis Medresh. Why did Avraham Avinu charge money from those who wouldn't thank Hashem for the food if it really was Hashem's? Since if the guest couldn't admit to the truth, then he will pay for it. You speak of the IDF as though all their efforts are al pi daas Torah, and then you claim the chareidim should join to show them how to be good soldiers. Bnei Torah belong in the Beis Medresh, nothing to do with egoism. Chareidim are more than happy to have chilonim join them in the Beis Medresh. Of course osek bmitzva potur min hamitzva applies as well. You accuse my statement as being kefira? I'm sorry, what did the IDF do when Sadaam Hussein was raining scuds down on Israel? Nothing. Who protected us? I recommend you read the book "From Our Sealed Rooms", and then tell me that our brawn won us that conflict. We need more people being oseik bTorah, not less, and by the way, oseik means to toil, not to know. Keep these points in mind.
Mi Ani,
once again, instead of thinking really and answering, you're just throwing some few drashot from here and there, most of them not at all halachikal, without even truly understanding them...
"Why did only 1/5 leave Mitzrayim? Because not everyone was on the proper level to receive the Torah."
This is one of a lot of explanations.
And personnaly I believe in this subject that they are all correct, and are interwindled.
But I won't ever bother. I'll begin with the fact that even non-israeli, the Erev Rav, left and was able too to receive Torah, which make your explanation lacking much to be satisfying.
Nowaday, every Israeli, like all jews has "left mistrayim", even if it's only by zehut avot. So he too has the level for the Torah. So how can you even think about preventing him from learning from you ????
"Why did the leviyim sit and learn and not help build up Egypt? That's because when Paroh asked for volunteers they stayed in the Beis Medresh."
This is just false. Probably from a very bad translation. Which make me fear for you, especially because of how you much you interpreted a false source.
After a few research, I found the original source, in the Rambam, hilchot A"kum, first perek, halacha 3 (I translate almost word to word) :
"Until the days were lenghtened of Israel in Mitzrayim, and they returned to learn their actions and to idolate the stars. Except the tribe of Levi, which had keeped the mitzvot. And never has the tribe of Lebi idolated the stars."
Not quite what you thought.
"Why did Avraham Avinu charge money from those who wouldn't thank Hashem for the food if it really was Hashem's? Since if the guest couldn't admit to the truth, then he will pay for it."
I'm sure the antisemites out there are loving your interpretation.
But if you want to keep it like this, without entering in any precisions, here is its application to our situation.
It's Avraham who decided that he can't ask money for him hosting and giving meal. Not the guests who decide that they don't have to pay for it. So when soldiers are on the field and risking their lives, it's their choice if they want that "you pay for the meal", not your's to impose.
Yeah, right, here again, we see once again the egoism in your position.
"You speak of the IDF as though all their efforts are al pi daas Torah"
I never wrote a thing like this. It's the ideal, but because some of the followers of "daas Torah" are not involved, then there is no reason for the army to care about it all.
"and then you claim the chareidim should join to show them how to be good soldiers."
And now you can understand this perfectly after I corrected your grand deforming of my words.
"Bnei Torah belong in the Beis Medresh, nothing to do with egoism. "
Does you even read what I write ? The egoism is not because they belong in the Beit Midrash, it's because for illegitimate reasons, they avoid enlisting. As I wrote again and again, someone has to do the job. There is no reason that some can avoid it because of "personnal interrests", which is a reason that is as much valable for anyone else : everyone is much better alive and not taking any risk after all. So yes, it's a huge egoism to say "we don't want to take a risk, even one so small as going OTD", while others are forced to risk their lives.
And so a Hillul Hashem, because now people see Limud Torah has a way avoiding sharing the risk like everyone else.
"Chareidim are more than happy to have chilonim join them in the Beis Medresh."
So bring a small Beit Midrash with you in the army, enlist in group like we do in yeshivot hesder, so you would have a lot of interrested hilonim who will want to learn with you.
Right now, you're sending exactly the opposite message by looking like a group who only cares about the religious practice of their own kids without caring for even the lives of their others brethren.
"Of course osek bmitzva potur min hamitzva applies as well."
Yeah, and because you're wearing tsitsyot you don't have to do anything else at all.
The true halacha here is that if you can, you have to do any mitzvot you can. After all, the Haredim so much love and value the multiplication of mitzvot, and with hidur (!!!), so they should be and rightfully so the first to jump at the occasion of saving the lives of millions of people !!!
Y"ou accuse my statement as being kefira? I'm sorry, what did the IDF do when Sadaam Hussein was raining scuds down on Israel? Nothing."
And here is the General Rule : when you're sick, you look for a physician. When you want a boat, you look for a carpenter. When you have to deal geo-golitics and millitary strategy, you need politicians and generals. In the Gulf War, had Israel joined the fight, the coalition would have collapsed and a must bigger and dangerous war would have came.
"Who protected us? I recommend you read the book "From Our Sealed Rooms", and then tell me that our brawn won us that conflict."
I don't need to read another book to understand what the Torah say so clearly. We protected ourselves with divine help, we were His own tools. As I wrote, we are here to be a partner in His creation.
"We need more people being oseik bTorah, not less, and by the way, oseik means to toil, not to know. Keep these points in mind."
Always. But sometimes, there are more urgent needs. Especially when the Torah itself cleary required that the one doing it are the greatest Talmide Hachamim and Tzadikim.
I still have the hope that you'll read and think about what I wrote instead of looking for more small interpretations here and there to throw like this. But well, if they all are like the Rambam completly deformed, I'll be really happy to rectify !
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