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Tuesday, February 8, 2011

"Creative Ideas" Won't Bring Us Peace

Bernard Avishai has a long-winded "creative" wordy article in the New York Times claiming that the Olmert-Abbas talks could bring "peace."

Yet the Israeli-Palestinian talks in 2007 and 2008 provide an invaluable template for a new, Obama-led push for peace.
Each told me that if new violence breaks out in Palestine, as seems quite likely, historians will look back with a sense of pathos on how narrow and, in some key areas, trivial the gaps were. “We were very close,” Olmert told me, “more than ever in the past, to complete an agreement on principles that would have led to the end of the conflict between us and the Palestinians.” Abbas said the talks produced more “creative ideas” than any in the past. He took pains to assure me that he had been most flexible on Israel’s security demands. Olmert, in retrospect, agrees, saying that Abbas “had never said no.” Olmert insisted that he had conceded to Abbas every major demand Palestinians had made for decades: a border based scrupulously on the 1967 lines, a Palestinian capital in Jerusalem and “recognition of the problem” of refugees. “I was ready to take complete responsibility and move forward forcefully,” Olmert told me. “I believed, I still believe, that I would have broken through all the barriers and won over public opinion in this country and the world.”

Nothing he says makes any sense in the real world. This isn't a computer card game, during which you can "undo" and try again, and again until you win.

The more I look at Avishai's article the more ridiculous it sounds:
"As unlikely as it might sound, now is the time. Obama’s hand in Israel has been strengthened by events in Tunisia, Egypt and Jordan."
Duh?  As the saying goes... "What is he smoking?"

Our Land and security aren't toys, clothes, commercial real estate to be traded for fun and profit.  It's crucially necessary to listen to what the Arabs are saying.  PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas says different things in English to the western media than he says to the Arabs in Arabic.  Hat tip: PMW
Abbas to Western audience:

"'I am committed to peace, but not forever,' Mr. Abbas said. 'I don't mean I will turn to violence - never. In my life, I will never do it. But I cannot stay in my office forever doing nothing.'"

Abbas to Arab audience:

"I have said more than once that if the Arabs want war - we are with them."

Abbas made the statement against violence in an interview with Bernard Avishai* writing for the New York Times Magazine. The statement was intended for an international audience and reported in the New York Times on January 27, 2011.

Abbas made the second statement not ruling out war in a meeting with Egyptian and other Arab journalists. This statement was meant for an Arab audience and reported in the official Palestinian Authority daily Al-Hayat Al-Jadida on January 24, 2011.

Bernard Avishai* has fallen for a very professional con man.  Abbas knows how to play his audience, manipulate the journalists and politicians.

There will only be peace, real peace, when the Arabs want it and educate a generation plus of children to be peaceful and tolerant.  Peace will come when the Arabs stop attacking us with physical and verbal and literary weapons.  And when and if that day does come, there will be no need for conferences and negotiations.  We almost had it after the 1967 Six Days War, but Israel rejected it by offering our Land to the defeated enemy.  Now it will be much harder and take so much longer.

We should not aim for peace, because we aren't the aggressors.  For peace we must get stronger, so the enemy will recognize that they can't defeat us.  Then they will try to live in peace with us, G-d willing.  Yes, G-d has overriding control over things.  We must recognize and respect it.

Yisrael, Batach B'Hashem
People of Israel, Trust in G-d


Hadassa said...

How about creatively defeating the enemy and bringing lasting peace to Israel and the entire region?

Yechiel said...

I have just made Aliyah from Vietnam. I had spent most of a decade there working as an architect and businessman. I watched a country who when I arrived had high unemployment, a low GDP per capita (about $200/month) and a Government with a tight grip on its citizens. Not a lot of happiness.

Over 10 years the country, spawned by economic stimulus and foreign investment has grown into an economic powerhouse. Civil unrest has turned into -young people interested in marrying, starting families, buying new motorbikes, cars, apartments. Now it is not uncommon to see Vietnamese in Saigon making the same salaries as foreigners.

I draw a parallel to Vietnam as I feel the solution to the problem with the arabs is Jordan. Currently Jordan experiences much of the same unrest that I saw in Vietnam a decade ago.

However, if Jordan's economy were stimulated in the right way - lets say first by building through BOTs de-salinization plants to make Jordan water independent and assisting Jordan to attract global investors to build factories, help Jordan to establish agriculture (as Israelis are experts here), Jordan will become a vacuum for arabs in Israel.

The lasting benefit for whatever leader does this in Jordan, they will have the benefit of the success of this being attributed to them.

To listen to the world bandwagon and say that Judea and Shomron are the solution, is only a fools errand. Already 2.7 million arabs on the land. Make it a country and there will be 4-5 million on an area smaller than Delaware in the US with no natural resources and requiring most of its GDP from international handouts.

Delaware by the way is the 6th densest state in the US with 850,000 citizens.

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in the vanguard said...

Only those so far removed from Torah perspective can still dream there can be peace with Arabs/Moslems, instead of the only solution - the Moshiach solution!

Yechiel said...

Vanguard. The Torah states we must DO we can not bury our heads in the sand. I feel that considering the Headlines tonight it maybe Hashem's plan to help Jordan. Now the leadership in Jordan is in trouble and needs to "sell a solution." Also Abbas and his kids just accepted Jordanian citizenship.

It takes a few tactical moves but it is in my opinion the best solution. Build Israel's neighbors. They will not want war with Israel if their economies and populace are strong.

Yechiel said...

...and most importantly it will create a vacuum for the unemployed or less fortunate PA arab. Then Israel must annex Judea and Samaria.

in the vanguard said...

I gave you wrong impression if you took my words to mean "bury your head in the sand." But, even as you elaborate, don't expect real peace between the Moslems/Arabs, because that will come only when Moshiach shows up. In the meanwhile, your suggestion is a good, active intermediary gambit.

Batya said...

Hadassa, it's pretty cut and dry/straight forward what we must do. Must package it right with confidence, get some elephant hide.

Yechiel, Vietnam is backed by other countries and is a totally different place.

van, different values for sure

Hadassa said...

Yechiel, you're not taking into account the root of the problem. In the Mid-east religious/historic roots run so deep...
The Muslims, including Arabs, would rather live in tents in a Judenrein Land of Israel than be wealthy and allow the Jews even a small part of their own country.
PS Jordan isn't interested in absorbing the "Palestinian Arabs" currently living in Israel and neither is Egypt, nor Syria. Egypt is the easiest example to understand: Egypt has not done a thing to help the Arabs in the Gaza Strip, except turn a blind eye as they smuggle weapons. Look at history until 1967 and since 2005. Jordan is no different in their opinion of the "Palestinian Arabs".

Batya said...

Hadassa, thanks for the input.

in the vanguard said...

Batya - you're right. It's a matter of seeing the forest and not focusing on details of the trees.

You can slice and dice this political situation and that, what this guy said and what that, and in the end you're still in the stew of it. The one solution, may it happens in our lifetime, if not NOW, is Moshiach!

Batya said...

That's it. It's not in our hands. "Hu oseh shalom," G-d makes peace

Yechiel said...

Batya, Actually Vietnam was only recently trading with other countries (about 20 years.) I have to say, that your assumption about Vietnam is not accurate. Its biggest trading partner is now the US but only in the last 3 years. Prior to last year its Imports exceeded its exports. Jordan has open trading with the entire world. Jordan's imports currently exceed its exports by 70%.

Hadassa absolutely I took that into account but as I see it, its not the critical factor whether Israel can defend itself as it can (Psalm 121.) The real issue is turning the attention from Aretz Israel and to the destruction of the Jews to the lives of those who are trying to destroy it. ie.

The demographic of the arabs who are so hell bent on destroying Israel and our people (Jews) are a handful of radicalized leaders. Generalizing the everyday arab is interested in making money, having a family, buying a home etc if the opportunity were presented to him/her. We see this in the US and Europe and in the Jerusalem Shuk below my apartment!

Van. You are absolutely right that when Mashiach is here things will be set right, but it is my feeling without questioning my faith in Hashem, that we as Jews 1st must stick together and second must do that which will help us follow Torah. Luring arabs outside of aretz Israel fullfils at least 2 Mitzvahs as I see it: populating Aretz Israel and not shedding blood in doing so.

Yechiel said...

Batya. By the way you have a great Blog. It is one of my favorites. Please come join my Facebook Page Judea & Samaria Now! http://www.facebook.com/pages/Judea-Samaria-Now/152519738128558

If you use the blog on FB. Thanks for your support and please feel free to put links on the page to articles and posts on your site (I do already.) It is an open forum only policed for profanity and other decorum issues.

Batya said...

Yechiel, thanks, I'm on facebook under my name. I admit to not being an expert when it comes to Vietnam.

Yechiel said...

batya. I didn't have your family name so its probably easier if you follow the http://www.facebook.com/pages/Judea-Samaria-Now/152519738128558
Link. Thanks.

Batya said...

Yechiel, my name is right here on this blog. Look around the banner.

Yechiel said...

Batya I only see your first name. There are 2000 Batya on FB.

Batya said...

Yechiel, you'd make an awful detective, no offense. Look at this blog's banner. My name is full written there.

Yechiel said...

Batya is it Medad? That would have been too easy wouldn't it? Unfortunately when I blog and others blog on your page many of us have a different interface which is not part of your website but part of www.blogger.com. I haven't seen your website during this entire conversation.

However it was clearly much easier for you to insult a Jew publicly than to type the 5 letters of your name. Shavuah Tov.

Batya said...

Sorry, if you feel insulted. I didn't mean to insult you. After years of teaching tools to get good grades in reading comprehension, I've gotten used to making people look at all the clues. I had no idea that you can't see the banner.
I blog under my full name on Arutz 7, The Ey of the Storm

Hadassa said...

I'm sorry Yechiel, but you haven't taken the root of the problem into account. Improving the economic situation of the Arabs will not bring peace to Israel. They have a better standard of living in Israel than in any Arab country and they still consider Israel the "evil Zionist entity". Pay attention to what news organizations like IMRA and CAMERA report. The "radicalized leaders" are not the only Arabs that can't be bought with "the good life". Also the fact that in "mixed" cities such as Acco, Ramleh, Lod, even parts of Tel Aviv and Be'er Sheva Jews can't walk safely at night for fear of being attacked by Arabs, regular city dwellers, not their "radicalized leaders" should give you an idea of who the Arabs are. BTW, all of those cities are claimed by the Arabs as their own, but if you listen to what they say in English, you'd never know that. They state it quite clearly in Arabic.
The Arabs do not claim the US and Europe as their homeland so don't compare what they do there with what the do in Israel. In addition to buying and selling in the shuk under your window the Arabs have on numerous occasions exploded themselves killing and injuring, all in all, hundreds of Jews. They will continue to do so until either, G-d forbid, all of Israel is under their control or they are soundly defeated.

Batya said...

Hadassa, your input is so valuable. Thanks