Friday, September 25, 2009

Guide for Those Perplexed over ICEJ’s Feast


Posted by Jewish Israel
“Israel's largest annual tourism event” may be a virtual “Feast for Jewish eyes, but it’s a full blown Jesus Fest for its evangelical participants – and that presents the Jewish state with a very real problem.

Can we welcome evangelizing Christian Pilgrims and allow them to worship here without contravening the halacha and compromising our very souls?

Also, Jewish Israel has posted an excerpt of a new related video with Rabbi Riskin.
Is Rabbi Riskin suggesting that G-d's Brit Bein He'Betarim (Covenant Between the Parts) between G-d and Abraham had the Christians in mind from the outset?

Read Jewish Israel's report and members can participate in our forum on this issue...more

83 comments:

Robert said...

I have been on discussions of Judaism, and Christianity with Batya many times. My name is Robert. We do not choose to take a vacation to Israel, because we gave our money instead to help Jews return to thier homeland. I would never push my beliefs upon Israel, and I believe from Hebrew translation that there are many mistranslations in the New Testament that only Hebrew can unlock, and I see no changes of the laws or commandments, only fulfilment. [Isaiah1:2,3]I hope Isaiah is not foul language, or Jeremiah or Moses as they were all rejected as well as Yehoshua.[Deuteronomy18:18] and it couldn't be Joshua because as the other guy said ; He was at the tabernacle bar, instead of seeing G-d's face. You are only fulfilling your own G-d's prophesy!Shalom, and not shalvah.There are over 50 similarities of Yeshua to Moses inconcievable by human intervention. One day ;All shall know Him! I am well able to answer any questions you have now!Thanks to Judaism. I do understand the persecution false men used in G-d's name to deceive you from the truth, and try to mislead you from the truth, and hurt , and want to destroy G-d's chosen ones. That was not yehoshua! The Jewish faith has been persecuted more than any other people in History, so why now ;when I accept your faith unchanged , do you deny me the right to believe what G-d has brought me from death to believe. Are you then no better than your persecuters?It is G-d's timing, whom He shall choose for vessels of honor, and those of mercy; not us or people in tee shirts trying to cram what they do not understand themselves down your throats. I agree and disagree with your comments. It seems perhaps Christians have much to learn from the trunk , and roots of the tree, but without the branches and fruit, and living water of the Holy Spirit, and the Love of the G-d of Israel, we are nothing!

Unknown said...

Hi Batya and Shavua Tov and Gmar Chatima Tova,
I don't understand a word this Robert guy is saying - what is he mixing up Yehoshua the pupil of Moses and the one who was chosen by G-d to bring the People of Israel into the Chosen Land. When the Meshiach will come, the son of King David, all the nations of the world will accept the Only G-d and then they will come and worship Him at the rebuilt Temple. Until then, a christian who wants to worship at Jewish sites, needs to convert first and accept all the laws of Judaism of today, no one is forcing him to convert, let him stay christian and be a good advocat for the Jews without mixing his religion with Judaism. He can keep the Nohahide laws without converting but that makes him a christian who worships his religion. You really have to be strong in your faith to recognize who is a christian.

ellen said...

Shana Tova, Bracha

Glad you are able to see through the deception here. Note that Robert starts out by mentioning that he gives money to Israel and would never push his beliefs upon Israel.
And yet he ends his comment with a full blown declaration directed to Jews about his Christian faith.

This strategy is offensive to Jews.

So to clear up the confusion:

Evangelicals are missionaries by definition. This is not a dirty word. Evangelicals by definition evangelize, and are obligated to share their faith with the hopes of drawing people towards a belief in Jesus. That makes them missionaries. And we Jews are obligated to avoid being drawn into their trap.

Whether the method used is overt street proselytizing like Jews for Jesus does; witnessing through music, dance, theater, and interfaith dialoguing, publishing material, issuing “love baskets” and “gifts”; planting indigenous churches in foreign countries with the purpose of raising a generation of believers, or witnessing in a talkback like Robert, makes little difference.
It is all missionary activity.

Jewish Israel believes in calling a spade a spade. Any Jewish-Christian endeavor should be approached with honesty from both sides. Essentially, when a Jew says, “the evangelicals are Israel’s best friends” they should be equally comfortable saying, “the missionaries are our best friends”. If they can’t say this with comfort, then there is something wrong with the relationship.

This is one Jew who feels that there is something wrong with the relationship.

G'mar Chatima Tova

Anonymous said...

There are over 50 similarities of Yeshua to Moses inconcievable by human intervention.
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As one who's read through plenty of your new testament, don't make me laugh. Oh yeh, they both had beards.

If you think Jesus is the greatest thing since Spaghettios, well, goody for you.

But for us Jews loyal to Hashem and His Torah, your dead Jew on a stick comes off as one unimpressive, arrogant bastard, and a drop-out as well. If that's what impresses you, he's all yours.

As for Moshe Rabbeinu, G-d testifies of him, some 1000 years before your baby Jesus was even a gleam in his mother's eye, what can never be said of anyone else throughout time:

And there was no other prophet who arose in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face

Here's the original Hebrew, since it is indeed important to know what exactly is written throughout Tanach (and Jesus cannot be found therein not a single time):

וְלֹא קָם נָבִיא עוֹד בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל כְּמֹשֶׁה אֲשֶׁר יְדָעוֹ יְ־הֹוָ־ה פָּנִים אֶל פָּנִים
- Deuteronomy 34:10

Ain't nothin' like the real thing, baby!

To my fellow Jews, a G'mar Chatimah Tova. Fast and daven well. We need Hashem's yeshua, through Mashiach Ben David, binheirah beyameinu. Hang in there!

Anonymous said...

To shyguy; I will translate the words of Hebrew to me you wrote. If you think I come to deceive you; you are incorrect. I come to accept all the laws and commandments to every letter. The true believers in Yehoshua are not your enemies as you soon will find out, but are mixed in the bag of persecution along with the Hindus's. We face a common enemy; Radical Islam ,that is stepping in your doorways, and killing your children, and mothers, and sons, and daughters with only one objective; and it is not accepting Israel unchanged in whole ,as at least I do, and some others. I come to learn in a forum of peace. I need you to show me the true words of G-d, and only Hebrew can do so. I have only found;[ Matthew5:17-19] so far everything fits!I want you to prove to me it doesn't!You should not think death, and mock upon one who's only objective was to bring Life in the name of the G-d of Israel![Micah 5:2,3]. I like the fire you bring. Perhaps we both shall learn!, and the Messiah who brings G-d,s gift unto His chosen people ;Israel, and unto the vessels of mercy and honor whom He chose before sin had a name.For instance; Esau, and Jacob. Did not G-d choose before either were born?I could tell you the similarities, and G-d could split the Red Sea again, or rain bread from Heaven , and still you would not believe, because it is not time. Would you believe if you see Him face to face?You will be given that opportunity, but one comes before Him that will decieve ; even the elect if he can, and it is not Yehoshua. I do not come to bring hate, or arguments, just a discussion of peace. Judaism is the only religion[if calling truth is considered religion] to be true. Shalom.

Anonymous said...

Robert the messianic, you cannot fullfil all the laws since you worship a deity of flesh and blood. Heck, that means you're not abiding by neither the Ten Commandments if you're Jewish, nor by the 7 Noachide Laws if you're a gentile.

You don't deceive me because you're far from the first of your brood to be encountered.

I'm all for joint efforts against the Jihad onslaught against us in Dar al Harb. However, we are constantly encountering individual Christians and especially almost all evangelical ministries and organizations who cannot keep their grubby hands off of our people's neshamahs (souls).

As such, any desire on the part of a large portion of Christianity to fight Islam while at the same time spiritually harm my people will not have my support whatsoever. If anything, we Jews know that such a conniving friendship will only cause us harm in the fight against the Islamic enemy.

We are getting ready here for the holiest day of the year. I have no time to respond further and certainly no time to sully my mind with verses in Matthew or anything else from the NT.

For a quick understanding of why nothing of your idolatrous belief fits, visit Outreach Judaism and Simple To Remember for starters.

Anonymous said...

Shyguy? Doesn't sound to shy to me,and I worship in Spirit , and in truth. It's funny though at least you comunicate with me? I defended Judaism's right to have comments on a very large Christian website, and they blocked my post& comment and said it was inapropriate[Only Christians allowed][I think your respect of Atonement day is also appropriate, as David ate the shewbread from the temple, and said; Is not the Son of man Lord of the Sabbath. Do you say Immanuel does not exist to not worship G-d in man? As for a brood; it seems you are doing the lynching, but I appreciate your feedback. I worship the New Covenant unto which is written on my heart.I suppose it is not finished , but set in place. I believe because G-d created His chosen with a heart, and soul to choose Him freely. I belong to no brood of men, and as for my house and I: I will serve the man on the stick ;whom the Father sent to become G-d in man!No trinity ,only extensions. I wonder if Moses worshipped the bush, or the voice of G-d tat rose as fire from the bush? Your rejection only fulfills prophesy![Jeremiah 44:10]They told jeremiah also ;He shall surely die for speaking against G-d. I tell you your Temple shall be rebuilt, and destroyed again, and New Jerusalem shall descend fron heaven with the Lion of Judah upon His Throne. I would hope you would at least;Love your neighbor!, and not bear false witness against me! Isn't that a law?What Atonement do you make ready for if not the G-d of Israel?I accept you as you are , and stand behind your right of freedom,and worship. it's still 7:00 here and the sun is almost ready to set, so my preparations are set for you to ask G-d; to reveal himself to you, not in flesh; but by the light of the Holy Spirit in which the earthly light of the mennorah may not let you see His words,and the fulfillment of all Israel.[Jeremiah31:37] Shalom.

Anonymous said...

Robert, you speak in gibberish parables, much like the dead deity you worship. Once again, we Jews are unimpressed and that's an understatement.

G-d is actually much more down to earth.

You wonder whether Moses worshiped a bush. Go ahead and wonder. We've known all along that the answer is no. But you go ahead and make up whatever suits your fancy.

As I said, and you failed to refute, you are an Oved Avodah Zarah (usually inaccurately translated as an idol worshipper).

You do not get to first base.

You do not pass go nor collect $200 dollars.

Anonymous said...

A little spare time on my hands.
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Robert said...

I have only found;[ Matthew5:17-19] so far everything fits!

---------------------------------

Nope. Square peg, round hole.

In essence, that’s like saying Jesus did the right thing so you don’t have to do it anymore. Just plain silly.

Over and over again in the Jewish scriptures, we are told to follow the Torah, follow the Torah, and follow the Torah.

Then one self-proclaimed false prophet comes along and preaches otherwise, and some folks believe him instead.

Who are you fooling?

It's one thing if Christianity was devised as being non-dependent on Judaism and the Torah's scriptures. However, its Achilles's heel is the Tanach itself, for when one references the Tanach, the NT is truly foundationless.

Christianity is not a branch grafted on a tree stump. Christianity is the weeds growing wildly around the tree, vying for the tree's nutritional sources and inhibiting the tree's full potential growth.

This is what the Torah commands of us, even according the the KJV's translation, let alone according the original Hebrew's:

Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy G-d giveth thee, for ever. (KJV)

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your G-d which I command you. (KJV)

Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever! (KJV)

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. (KJV)


Follow the commandments, don’t add to them or subtract from them, and do them forever. That seems fairly simple to grasp.

And remember: "the truth will set you free!"

That's about the only NT verse I appreciate. Maybe because it's the most ironic of NT verses.

Anonymous said...

To Shy Guy, Thanks for the spare time. My last post got deleted, because I chose a secure setting. I understand your resentment of Christianity; seeing false men came proclaiming in the name of Yeshua , and decimated Israel, and are still doing it today![land for peace] But this is not the same Yehoshua I bring to your forum. I support you , and don't want your soul, or money, and is not the foolishness of G-d greater than the wisdom of man?If I would have made the right move ; would you give me $200.00? [just kidding] I like your spunk!I thought maybe the second post was telling me I would get the $200.00.At least we agree politically. Obama;the E.U./U.N. stinks, and one day; All the Nations will bow down to Israel, and say; Truly ; they are the chosen of G-d!

Anonymous said...

Robert said...
I understand your resentment of Christianity;

-------------------------------

No, you obviously don't.

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seeing false men came proclaiming in the name of Yeshua , and decimated Israel, and are still doing it today![land for peace]
-------------------------------

Like I said, no, you obviously don't. The false man was your dead Jesus. The rest, including his original disciples and no matter what the flavor of the day, are just a contagious disease, with inherent mutations along its historic path.

(BTW, how do you know his Hebrew name was Yeshua? How do you know it wasn't Yehoshua? Yishai? Yeshu? Yeshaya? You don't. Run around. Look for a Hebrew source. Waste more time).

===============================

But this is not the same Yehoshua I bring to your forum. I support you , and don't want your soul, or money, and is not the foolishness of G-d greater than the wisdom of man?
-------------------------------

Please don't lie. Look back at your posts and read what you've tried shoving in our faces.

Finally, we do not attribute any foolishness to G-d.

Anonymous said...

Robert, I see you like to skirt the disputation I posted from the Torah.

I understand.

Anonymous said...

Hello again ,Shy Guy, I am sorry if you think I am skirting away from any discussion , other than having a broken foot; a R knee replacement;L knee tendon repair, right shoulder repair and a broken disc in my neck, so I only have two fingers to type, and a broken jaw in need of repair, and I blacked out from pain.!G-d likes to keep me humble. Actually I died falling 25 feet on my head ,not believing in any G-d, but guess what. Yehoshua ;Son of the G-d of Israel came unto me in the darkness of death,andsaid; Stand in this shallow strem that looked like glass which became a raging river , and I awoke from the dead and am conversing with you now; given life from grace; with 2 fingers to type with. Do not decieve yourself , if you think yourself wise in this world, perhaps you should become a fool that you may become wise. Because the wisdom of this world is foolishness to G-d. It is written; He takes the wise in thier own craftiness, and the Lord knows the thoughts of the wise , that they are vain! Let no man glory in men, For all things are His! It is a small thing to me that I be judged of you, or of any man's judgement, or do I judge myself!I know nothing by myself yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judges me is the Lord!Would it not be better to judge nothing before the time the Lord comes; who will bring light to the hidden things of darkness, and will manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of G-d. By the way ;do not believe in miracles, but the works of the spirit everlasting, of the G-d of Israel, Shalom.

Anonymous said...

Also I did go to ;outreach for Judaism,a while back[with little response] and found Tovia, though claiming he once believed in the words of Yehoshua; quite innacurate of his scriptural self interpretations of the New Testament/geneology , etc. He should stick to what He knows! I see a lack of accurate translation of Christianity,from Judaism , as much as Christians translation to the meaning of words of understanding Judaism from 100 diffrent translators. Only Hebrew is correct!If they don't harmonize; someones wrong, and it isn't G-d!,or Yehoshua;son of man, but I cannot find fault , but truth, as I find the correct meanings, and translations.Both are correct!, as there are the inner Temple , and the Holy of Holies All I find is they do!It Must be the knowledge of faith!, because without knowledge, and faith begins, men perish! Shalom

Anonymous said...

It's obvious that you're all full of spirit, Robert. But you're no different than many Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and others of various religious persuasions are and have been throughout history. None of them have "Jesus in their heart."

Maybe we should just have an international "Spirit in my Heart" contest, with a panel of celebrity judges to pick the winner.

Sorry, Robert, ours is made of tougher stuff, going back on a national level to the Patriarchs, the 12 Tribes, the Exodus and to the Sinai Revelation. Nope. No Jesus there - anywhere. In fact, just the opposite.

While we're here, tell us where Tovia's genealogy thesis went awry.

You still skirted the issues I mentioned earlier, where G-d's words in the Torah, in Hebrew, English, French or Spanish or Esperanto, proclaim that anything else, including a dead Jew on a stick, is a non-starter.

Anonymous said...

You must have a lot of time on your hands . Me I have alot on one!You asked so I will tell you.In one of his most specific predictions ; Moses declared that G-d would raise up another Jewish prophet in the future whose life would closely resemble his own. This prophesy of Moses that the Messiah would be like him is important to Israel in determining the credentials of the Messiah. Moses prophesied of a "prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him shall you hear... And the Lord said to me: I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among thier brethren, and will put my words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear my words, which He speaks in my name, I will require it of him![Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19] These prophesies were fulfilled in detail in the life , and death and ressurection of Jesus:"Then those men when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said,, this is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world" [ John 6:14].The Talmud declares " that the Messiah must be the greatest of future prophets, as being nearest in spirit to our master Moses". Throughout the Gospels and Epistles we find the claim that certain messianic prophecies were accomplished in the life of Yehoshua. For example, when the scribes sent people to question John the baptist, they asked two questions. The 1rst, was, " Are you Elijah?" [John 1:21] referring to Malachi's prophesy that Elijah would come as a messenger before the appearance of the Messiah. Do not the Jews still set out a cup of wine for Elijah at Passover-the prophesied forerunner of the Messiah, and the smallest boy of the family is elected to open the door to invite Elijah to join the Passover Seder?[continued]

Anonymous said...

The second question was; Are you the Prophet? [John 1:21] this referred to Moses' prophesy that G-d would send a " a prophet like me." When Phillip found Nathaniel, he said to him' We have found Him of whom Moses in the Law , and also the prophets, wrote-Yeshua of Nazareth, the son of Joseph'[geneology later](verse 45). After Yeshua fed the five thousand, the men referred to the well known prophesy of Moses," This is truly the Prophet who is come into the world[John 6:14] In His defense ,Stephen the martry declared that Yeshua was the promised Messiah: " This is that Moses who said to the children of Israel, "The Lord your G-d will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him shall you hear! [ Acts 7:37-38]Yeshua's life was so much parrelel to Moses that no other person in History came close to fulfilling this prophesy. In the last verses of Deuteronomy, writing after the death of Joshua, tells us that even Joshua missed the mark." There has not arisen in Israel a prophet like Moses whom the Lord knew face to face[D. 34:10][continued]

Anonymous said...

[3rd. response continued]First we must consider the roles which Moses , and Yehoshua played;prophet, priest, lawgiver, teacher, leader of men. Both taught new truth from G-d and confirmed their teachings with miracles. Both spent thier early years in Egypt. miraculously protected from those who sought thier death. Moses' family initially rejected his role, but later his brother Aaron, and sister, Miriam , helped him. Yeshu'a mother, brothers, and sisters initially failed to follow Jesus, but later his brother James became the leader in the church in Jerusalem.Each were considered the wisest man in the day. Both confronted demonic powers and successfully subdued them. As Moses appointed seventy rulers ober Israel, Yeshua annointed seventy diciples to taech the Nations. Moses sent twelve spies to explore Canaan, Jesus sent twelve apostles to reach the world. The Bible states, neither experienced sickness, nor did either of thier bodies remain in the tomb. Both fasted 40 days and experienced spiritual crises on mountain tops. As Moses stretched out his hand over the Red Sea to command it, Jesus rebuked the Sea of Galilee and quieted the waves. Both thier faces shone with the glory of Heaven-Moses on Sinai, and Yeshua on the Mount of Transfiguration.[continued]. As I research scripture;It seems mistranslations create a Vail of deception to the truth that Yehoshua brought; as Moses, and I wish Shy guy would not refer to Jew on a stick; that should be offensive to any Jew considering the Holocaust, whether you beleive or not! Thankyou. My arm is stopping. There is an answer to every question you have. The translations of the NewTestament when read in Greek , and Hebrew translate the Ressurection differently, and geneology, and many other thinkings of trinity, messias, Messiah, Immanuel, Alma, Virgin, annointed, etc. I ask only the truth be said, and then it is your decision to judge the words I bring, from Old ,and everlasting[ Micah 5].Yeshua did not declare Himself G-d, but Him who G-d the father sent![Matthew 12:46-50]

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

[Deuteronomy 18:15, 18-19]

--------------------------------

Why do those verses not refer to Samuel the Prophet? How about Isaiah? What about Jeremiah? Ezekiel? Hosea? Amos? Etc., etc.

BTW don't be shy about verse 20 there:

"But the prophet, that shall speak a word presumptuously in My name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die."

Hmmm....... sounds familiar.......

It would be helpful if this passage from the Torah was read in context - something which Christian "proof" ("poof") texts never seem to do.

G-d had just forbidden the people of Israel from seeking out fortunetellers, dark mystics, etc. Then He comforts us by telling us that we are not without Supernatural guidance, in that G-d will give us prophets. To say that this passage refers to one person (and there's no reason to think that one person is dead Jesus in particular) would mean that we were not required to follow the numerous prophets mentioned in the Bible after Moses died.

Do not pass go. Do not collect $200 - again.


=================================

These prophesies were fulfilled in detail in the life , and death and ressurection of Jesus
---------------------------------

Nope, not at all.
================================

Do not the Jews still set out a cup of wine for Elijah at Passover-the prophesied forerunner of the Messiah, and the smallest boy of the family is elected to open the door to invite Elijah to join the Passover Seder?
--------------------------------

Sure we do! But Elijah is not the messiah, nor is he a deity.

According to Biblical tradition, Elijah the prophet will reappear before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6). In the Greek Testament, Jesus claims that John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13). However, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he denied it (John 1:21). The Gospel of Luke 1:17 tries to get around this problem by claiming that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah. However:

1 - Malachi predicted that Elijah himself would return, and not just someone coming in his spirit.

2 - When asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn’t claim to have come in the spirit of Elijah - he claimed no association with Elijah at all.

3 - The prophesy about the return of Elijah says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers. There is no evidence that John the Baptist accomplished this.

And you still haven't refuted what I've previously pointed out to you from the Torah that anything other than Sinaiatic Torah Judaism is a non-starter, according to G-d's own verses.

Or do you really think that G-d flip-flops to suit your preferences?

Have you ever asked yourself why your Christian teachers never pointed these contradictions out to you? You should. There are so many more. Go ahead. Want to try another one?

There's still that one NT verse which ironically you refuse to actually deal with: "the truth will set you free." You remain a prisoner of 2000 years of primitive pagan fiction.

Anonymous said...

[4.] While Moses rescued Israel from the dead religion of pagan Egypt. Yeshua rescued Israel from the dead letter of the law of tradition. Moses and Yeshua cured lepers and proved thier authority through miracles they performed before many witnesses. As Moses conquered the great enemy of Israel, the Amalekites, with upraised arms; Yehoshua conquered our great enemy of sin and death by His upraised arms on the cross[ By ther way;Yeshua is not dead!; so His sacrifice brought life, not death! Is not the ground you stand on filled with the blood of Israeli soldiers who gave thier life that you may be free? Moses lifted up the brazen serpent in the wilderness to heal his people; as was Yehoshua lifted up on the cross to heal all believers from thier sin, as G-d chose![continued]

Anonymous said...

I see you posted continuations. I'm not going to bother replying to them because all you seem to be able to do is ignore refutation after refutation and bombard us with something different that you pray will work for you.

That's a really unimpressive strategy. It's a form of retreat.

Why don't you stop running away for a moment and deal with what was already presented to you. Remember: "the truth will set you free". But, first, you have to be honest with yourself.

Stop running and ponder for a moment, Robert.

Anonymous said...

As I said Shyguy , your rebellion against Yeshua is just another similarity of , as the people were ungrateful , and rebelled against both men. The generations that rebelled died in thier lack of Faith-one in the wilderness and one in the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Moses and yeshua both died on a hill. Moses promised that another Prophet would come; Yeshua promised the Church that His Father would send them another" Comforter," The Holy Spirit. In the 14th. day of Nisan, the Feast of Passover, both Moses and Yeshua freed all who would trust them. On the 17th day;Feast of Firstfruits, Moses brought about the ressuction of the children of Israel as theey passed through the Red Sea; On the anniversary of that day; Yehoshua became the Firstfruits of ressurection as He rose from the dead. Fifty days later, on the Feast of Pentecost, G-d delivered the Great gift of the Torah to Israel , and the Nations. Fifty days later after his ressuction; G-d gave the Church the great gift of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. The evidence does seem quite compelling?[continued], Unless you want to skirt away!, and delete my post. I hope your not like the other posts ; Christian and Jew; who block me out!

Anonymous said...

Every question you have asked , has been answered over and over again on JFJ Forums; Since my hand is sore, and I feel unrepetitious why dont you help out your Rabbi friends on ;Why I don't beleive in Jesus,read the posts , and then state your question![ I know how they feel by coming to a Judaic website now anyway!]It seems the beleivers in Yeshoshua end each thread, without a response, as this is resoning is very complex, but again ; simple, and I have surgery again soon, but I will respond to the best of my ability to your questions; but to unwaver the power that sends me here; I say; I am not wise enough,or good enough , or smart enough; but G-d says; When you think you are; I will have no need of you! Shalom Jewish Shy Guy. Why do you call yourself; SHYGUY? You raise great questions!, and have great Zeal! I am eager to respond, but need to rest a while!Robert

Anonymous said...

That's all you've got?

Why am I rebellious for following what G-d Himself clearly proclaims as the Eternal Torah?

The shoe is on the other foot.

BTW, what did we do wrong to your poor little Jesus when the 1st Temple was destroyed some 500 years prior to the destruction of the 2nd Temple?

You have given zero evidence. You are unable to refute sourced contradictions to your claims from the Torah, upon which you are dependent on to make your flimsy comparisons.

Moses lived to be 120. Jesus didn't make through his 30s. Ah yes, they both had beards, I suppose. Really! So what!

Moses promised the prophets would come. Note there is no mention of a messiah in any case. Again you could not refute what I wrote about Deuteronomy 18.

Moses didn't free the slaves of Egypt. G-d did. Moses was his messenger. Jesus didn't free anybody from the Romans. Major failure and major dissimilarity between Moses and Jesus. There are 100s more.

You fail to understand that as far as we Jews are concerned, your NT is a fairy tale book, concocted by selecting between over 4000 original manuscripts and whittling it down to what suited the founders of Christianity. And all that took ages to do and way after Jesus rotted back into dust and dirt.

Saying the NT is true because it says it's true is classic circular reasoning.

Saying the NT is a natural continuation of the Tanach does not stand up to any test of integrity. And you keep on skipping class when that test is given to you. I wonder why....

Truth.

Set.

You.

Free.

Anonymous said...

Every question you have asked , has been answered over and over again on JFJ Forums
--------------------------------

It was you who came here. No one forced you to.

I have no interest in wading through the theological cesspool that is the JFJ forums.

You have answered nothing I have posted regarding original Tanach sources. Apparently, you can't even copy and paste. Your poor hand!

Yet your poor hand can cascade us with a whole torrent of typical Christian fire and brimstone - for days on end. Amazing!

I would call that failure. Sorry, look for another sap to sucker into your cult. Like Paul, look around for the uneducated and ignorant. That's how he gathered a following. That is the milk you suckle.

Anonymous said...

Okay, lets start backwaards to your comments; forgiving your bad manners. Lets start with the Romans. Why is Israel here today and the Romans are not.Oh , of course;You did it!and Samuel , and The other Prophets did not fill the bill, other than the Preists did call death to Jeremiah speaking in the court. Moses said ; A prophet like unto me, not Moses, as John symbolized Elijah. Why do you set a cup for Elijah?and call him the Messiah,when he only comes to announce the Messiah[You think of Israel as a whole] , but even Isaih 9:6 catagorizes a man /ruler/ line of David/ deliverer/ Ruler/Immanuel;A man like unto Moses , but yet is Israel!Why does Isaiah prophesy a Messiah, and Daniel if He had already come , and the New Covenant set; As we all should know Him then?Sounds like you need some teaching![continued- backwards][So you might understand better!]Shalom. Your right ;I did come here; I hope I can stay, because you like me so well, or you wouldn,t be wasting your time on me!I feel your anger, but yet sense a man of integrity in you, and great heart! Thanks for the sympathy for the hand! It must be a miracle I can type this much! Thanks for your prayers!Robert

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

Okay, lets start backwaards to your comments; forgiving your bad manners. Lets start with the Romans. Why is Israel here today and the Romans are not.

-------------------------------

What? Huh?
===============================

Oh , of course;You did it!
-------------------------------

Did what? Huh?
===============================

and Samuel , and The other Prophets did not fill the bill,
-------------------------------

What bill? Of prophets? But you just said they were.

Read again what I wrote. Hint: context, context, context.
===============================

other than the Preists did call death to Jeremiah speaking in the court.
-------------------------------

What does this have to do with the price of tea in China?
===============================

Moses said ; A prophet like unto me, not Moses, as John symbolized Elijah.
-------------------------------

All of the Jewish prophets were no less valid and reliable prophets than Moses was. This was already discussed.
================================

Why do you set a cup for Elijah?
---------------------------------

Because the other 4 cups are dedicated to the 4 words of redemption: Ve'hotzeiti, Ve'hitzalti, Ve'ga'alti, Ve'lakachti.

Elijah's cup symbolizes the final redemption. Hence the reading of "Shfoch Chamatcha El Hagoyim Asher Lo Yeda'ucah". If you know what that means, its referring to the likes of you.

You're barking up the wrong tree because you have incorrect preconceptions.
==============================

and call him the Messiah,when he only comes to announce the Messiah
-------------------------------

Where in Tanach is Elijah referred to as the "messiah"?

Your sand castle is crumbling.
===============================

[You think of Israel as a whole] , but even Isaih 9:6 catagorizes a man /ruler/ line of David/ deliverer/ Ruler/Immanuel;A man like unto Moses , but yet is Israel!Why does Isaiah prophesy a Messiah, and Daniel if He had already come , and the New Covenant set; As we all should know Him then?
--------------------------------

When you phrase your questions so that they are understandable, perhaps I will try to respond. The above are several ramblings rammed together.
===============================

Sounds like you need some teaching!
-------------------------------

You have taught nothing new to those of us already familiar with the fallacies and discrepancies of your religion and its texts.
================================

[continued- backwards][So you might understand better!]Shalom. Your right ;I did come here; I hope I can stay, because you like me so well, or you wouldn,t be wasting your time on me!
--------------------------------

On the contrary. My responses to you here are to strengthen the faith of my fellow Jews, by showing up the absurdities of your claims with the greatest of ease.

Thanks for the easy target.
================================

I feel your anger,
--------------------------------

Laughter on this side of the Internet. I'm cool as a cucumber. Nice wishful thinking on your part, though.

Anonymous said...

To John the Baptist; He was asked ; Are you Elijah? He said ;No, as you said; He said ;Iam the voice of one in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said Esaias the Prophet[Isaiah40 ;3] Elijah shall come again , and Enoch, and stand in the Temple[Pslams 29:3-9][ Revelation chapter11][Daniel 8:26][12:4-9][4:7][Ezekial 3:3][2:10][Jeremiah 15:16].

Anonymous said...

All you have done is twisted my replies to suit your needs.One G-d ;One Israel; One truth.I do not know how to paste , and can be easily outmaneuvered by your false words, or should I say vailed. You only state my claim from the beginning; I cannot change any man ; only G-d and Time has a way of proving Himself, and as Yeshua prophesied the Temples destruction of 70 AD, so shall a prophet be known true when those words come to pass, so lets wait and see? I have eternity. I hope you do too![continued]Maybe you could come down to my level and communicate with a more simplistic understanding seeing I am a bit handicapped. I do not know Hebrew,only references or pasting .I need you to help me to help you! I am a simple man with a simple child like/half brain, brought from the dead; trying to relearn living, only knowing Yehoshua is real,because He gave me life! How excellent is your name oh Lord in all the earth. Who has set His glory above the Heavens. Out of the mouths of babes and sucklings have you ordained strength because of your enemies, that you Lord are the mightiest to silence the enemy and You alone Oh Lord; the Avenger. So thankyou for the compliment!Shy Guy I knew you were a nice guy. You should change your name to ; Niceguy!Shyguy. Shalom and continued. I am going to pass out again!!!!!!-----Your excellent!; Finally a challenge of reasoning!

Anonymous said...

I did not come against this website, but to proclaim the one who brings ;peace, and His name shall be called peace. Israel eternal;New Jerusalem from Heaven with the lion of Judah at the Throne. One G-d ;One heaven ; One chosen people; The children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The chosen Kingdom of the G-d of Israel.One day; All shall know him, and the New Covenant shall be complete!Peace to all. I have some backtracking to do , and learn how to twisterpaste, but that would be cheating!orshould I say; PaRDeS.

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

To John the Baptist;..........

(followed by various NT quotes and some Tanach quotes)

---------------------------------

Is there a point here? It would help if you gave us mere mortals a hint what you're ranting about again.

Is this your definitive answer to my prior question to you: where in Tanach is Elijah called the Messiah? If so, thanks for confirming that there is no such reference. That is why we Jews have known all along that Elijah, while being a prophet, is not the messiah. Once again, you tried proving something based on an errant assumption, because Christian scriptures show up their authors' ignorance of Judaism like ketchup on a white table cloth. Messy, messy!

And of course, you cannot resolve the contradictions of the NT's own references to Elijah, which I pointed out toward the end of my comment yesterday, dated 30/9/09 15:06.

Why are you hitting yourself?

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

All you have done is twisted my replies to suit your needs.

---------------------------------

I will now call you out for what you are:

A liar - and a desperate one at that

Give me one example where my reply to a theological claim of yours, twisted your words. Good luck!

The rest of this post of your was the usual Christian emotional drivel. Understandable, as you are unable to resolve the contradictions between NT's claims versus the Tanach's already existing verses. Nor can you even resolve the contradictions within the NT itself.

"Take yourselves for instance, brothers, at the time when you were called: how many of you were wise in the ordinary sense of the word, how many were influential people, or came from noble families? No, it was to shame the wise that god chose what is foolish by human reckoning; those whom the world thinks common and contemptible are the ones that god has chosen"

That would be the Jerusalem Bible's rendition of the verses at the end of 1 Corinthians 1. I choice the original Jerusalem Bible's rendition because it is nowhere near as touched up and covered over as later, propagandist translations, which realized how dumb this makes your belief's origins look.

We have above a candid statement of what the first Christian converts were: mostly unlearned ignoramuses - the ancient equivalent to the "useful idiots" of Vladimir Lenin. And it shows.

Anonymous said...

What a shame that "Shy Guy" wasted all that time and energy on someone who clearly doesn't know what he's talking about. I could have made a better argument for Christianity than Robert did. Oh well, good effort Shy Guy. Chag Sameach everyone.

Penina Taylor
Shomrei Emet Institute
www.shomreiemet.org
www.ajewforjudaism.wordpress.com

Unknown said...

wi

Anonymous said...

Using the name Yeshua or Yehoshua is to confuse the unknowing who are many and cannot distinguish. Why do you not mention Abraham Isaac Jacob who built the People of Israel and caused us to become the Chosen People by G-d. We are Chosen for eternity and do not need the christian OK to decide that we are Chosen. That was done by G-d if you open the Old Testament where G-d chose Abraham and all his descendants, not Ishmael but Isaac, not Esau, but Jacob and the twelve tribes. When the tribes did wrong, ten were deemed unworthy to stay in the Chosen Land but all this is temporary, all the Children of Israel will return to their Chosen Land and live as the Chosen People are destined to live, to be a Light into the Nations, to lead the other Nations to believe in the Only True G-d who makes daily the sun come out and the world turn on its axle. The more nations will recognize that Israel is the Chosen People, the closer will come the redemption. In the Land of Israel, the present Jews have to try to go in the path of the righteous to bring the Redemption but when the christians work to enlarge the Israelites enemies - G-d will bring the Redemption when He deems it should come, and we all hope it will be speedily in our lives, but if we do not see the Redemption, only our children, the Redemption will come without the shadow of a doubt. The christians can help by befriending the Israelites, but even if they put up all the blockages they want, the timing is not in the christians hands so a Jew is full of hope that even today the Redemption can come.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

...Old Testament

---------------------------------

What is that?

Anonymous said...

To anonymous. I agree with everything you say, other than the true believers in Yeshua know it is the G-d of Israel that continues the words from Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and the Prophets. To fulfill the words of Moses[Deuteronomy 18:18; like unto me ; He would have to be also a lawgiver[New Covenant] The ones who come to divide Israel disguised as Christians; I consider part of the willful Kings regime,[E.U/U.N./U.S.] or as we call ;the beast.We support Israel in full, from Old and everlasting;undivided, as I see the U.S. being torn to pieces from trying to divide Israel.[Prophesy the world must unite into a one world order; The U.S.; once stood on the Commandments, and was founded upon those principles of the Torah, and evil has used those values against themselves[freedom] to become an enemy of Israel. I am not afraid to die;for I have died, and saw your Heaven, and now I have to die again,[ no fun , but the benefits are out of this world!] but I know your G-d is real;unchanged. All the words you read are true, but there is a Spriritual light that illuminates a twofold meaning;Old and New; the same which I see your Bible code being discovered , as it showed the assasination of the Prime minister, yet ; no one listened. G-d is much more complex than we ; being human can understand. I appreciate your defencive posture , because there comes one who will come to destroy you[Not Yehoshua/Yeshua. G-d has come; with rejection, annointing, and comes again with redemption, all through the Torah, and the words of the prophets, but in Daniel and the seventy weeks ; it seems messias becomes singular to Messiah; G-d annointing unto Himself, as the Temple is destroyed, and will once again be built soon, and destroyed by the beast at the end of a 7 year peace treaty[4th year][little horn; I believe is Islam[Shiites]unite with sunni,as Osama bin Laden proclaimed himself the one[Mahdi][sunni],but I think Him another! and the U.S. is removed, only the G-d of Israel will defeat the great beast that is rising against Israel, and the beast stand in the Temple declaring himself god. Then shall the Lion Of Judah return , and New Jerusalem, the new temple built by G-d; descend from Heaven, and the beast removed, and Israel shall stand eternally from 1948 on and forever! The generation that see's this; some shall still be alive when the Lion Of Judah returns. [ Micah 5:2-3] What Old ?Shy guy; that Old and everlasting! Shalom my friends. I always learn from all of you!You must think I'm crazy, decieved, brainwashed,evil, all of the above, or maybe some will know ;Even just one! I'm right![continued]yeshua came to not change ; but fulfill!

Anonymous said...

It seems to me you tempt G-d, to test me that you would put the unbearable weight of the law around my neck and others, which not even your fathers or mine were able to bear! but we believe through the grace of the Lord; Jesus Christ;sent of G-d that through G-d, this grace would save us in the same manner you as you believe, yet you say:I should stand up to what you cannot obey yourself. Isn't that called ; A hypocrite?

Michael V said...

All I had to see was a comment about Deuteronomy 18 being a prediction about Jesus and wow, that was a better morning jolt than coffee!

verse 15, Moses speaks - "a prophet will the Lord your G-d raise up to you, from the midst of you, like me, and to him shall you listen"...and verse 18, G-d speaks " I will raise up for them a prophet from among their brothers, like you..." before segeuing in to the punishments of a false prophet.

First, it's impossible for anyone seeing a divine Jesus to use this passage as a prediction of Jesus, sinceG-d openly says that this prophet will come from people.

Second, when do we find that G-d forced anyone to follow Jesus (again, impossible if there's a trinity or biunity) ? In the Greek Testament, we only find Jesus speaking on his own authority, not G-d's; we also never find G-d speaking in the GT.

Robert, how can anyone look at these passages in Deuteronomy and possibly consider that the prophet/prophets under discussion are divine beings, and why is it that no further description of the messiah is offered?

Simple. Because Moses was a Jew, and a divine messiah is not a Jewish concept. Because Moses spoke to inform his people that there will be prophets - truthful ones - and false ones. That's all that's happening there.

Anonymous said...

We all can speak words. But where do our hearts lie? To condemn , or forgive. To bring peace; I say there shall be no peace,until Immanuel returns again, as your families are set one against the other, and you worship pagan gods, and homosexuality runs rampade through your streets. I wish that you could obey your laws of Moses, but still;Israel is divided amongst herself. The bride is still disobedient, and with disobedience , comes rejection, yet your G-d is so loving, and brings grace, and redemption , and you still defy His word. There is still a reckoning coming, and usually we bring it upon ourselves! Thank G-d that we only have to acknowledge His presence , and accept His grace, but that my friends seems to be your stumbling block that G-d has set before you!

Anonymous said...

Just another rant repeat. Anyways.....


=================================

New Covenant
---------------------------------

"Behold, days are coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant (brit) with the House of Israel and with the House of Judah. Not like the covenant (brit) which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the Lord, "I will put My law within them, and on their hearts I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," says the Lord, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
- Jeremiah 31:31-34

Nope. No Jesus there. For us Torah observant Jews, we clearly understand what is new in Jeremiah's prophecy. Jeremiah isn't even talking about the Torah! The Torah will be the same Torah. The Torah's laws will not change, just as they never has since Sinai.

Jeremiah is talking about a new covenant - brit. So, what exactly was the old covenant?

In the 28th and 29th chapters of Deuteronomy, Moses told the children of Israel that if they remained faithful to God in the land they were about to enter then the Almighty would bestow upon them manifold blessings and they would flourish in the Holy Land. On the other hand, if they backslid and turned away from the Lord, they would be driven out of Israel into a bitter exile in the land of their enemies. We are all familiar with the events that followed when the Jewish people broke their side of the covenant and they were sent into diaspora.

These four verses in Jeremiah 31:31-34 are part of an ongoing theme repeated throughout the Book of Jeremiah. Jeremiah's unique literary motif is to contrast the redemption of the children of Israel from Egypt with their final redemption in the messianic age -- always vividly illustrating how the latter will far outshine the former. In Jeremiah 23:7-8, the prophet makes this clear when he proclaims:

Therefore, behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when men shall no longer say, "As the Lord lives who brought up the people of Israel out of the land of Egypt," but, "as the Lord lives who brought up and led the descendants of the house of Israel out of the north country and out of all the countries where He had driven them." Then they shall dwell in their own land."

In the 31st chapter of Jeremiah, the prophet continues to contrast the exodus from Egypt with the messianic age. He therefore foretells that unlike the exodus from Egypt when the Jewish people were brought into the land of Israel only to be exiled centuries later because they broke their original covenant as a result of their faithlessness, in the messianic age, the Jewish people will enter into a "new covenant" when they will be permanently restored to their land, never to be exiled again.

(cont.)

Anonymous said...

(cont.)



As was declared by every prophet, the covenant that God has with the Jewish people is eternal. No words in the Christian Bible or interpolation of the Jewish scriptures can ever change this eternal oath. The prophet Isaiah proclaimed this vow more than 2,700 years ago:

"With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you," says the Lord, your Redeemer. "This is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. The mountains shall depart and the hills be removed, but My kindness shall not depart from you, nor shall My covenant of peace be removed," says the Lord, Who has mercy on you."
- Isaiah 54:8-10

Because Jeremiah's prophecy of an eternal Jewish people presents Christians with a serious theological problem, the NT had to go to great lengths to undermine it. In fact, the authors of the NT deliberately changed the words of Jeremiah in order to reverse the prophet's original message.

In Hebrews 8:9, while quoting Jeremiah 31:32, the conniving author changed a most crucial word in the verse. The last clause of Jeremiah 31:32 reads:

. . . My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them.

The author of NT's Hebrews lied (lots of liars among them folk) by misquoting Jeremiah's words and instead wrote in Hebrews 8:9:

. . . because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord."

The Hebrew word "ba'altee," means a "husband," not "to disregard." This is a stunningly criminal alteration of the words of Jeremiah; to be a "husband" is the precise opposite of "disregarding" someone.

How can the author of Hebrews change the word of G-d in order to demonstrate the superiority of Christianity over its older rival Judaism? When New Testament authors wantonly tamper with the Jewish scriptures, do they not convey the very opposite message?

Furthermore, in contrast to the message of Hebrews 8:13, the life-giving commandments of the Torah have no expiration date. Moses declared that these commandments are forever and ever.

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."
- Deuteronomy 29:28

"The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure. They stand fast forever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness."
- Psalm 111:7-8

Now I understand, Robert, why you lie and deceive so much. You are only imitating the authors and tactics of the pulp-fiction religion you adhere to.

But remember: "the truth will set you free." Oh, the irony!

Anonymous said...

ellen said...
Shana Tova, Bracha

Glad you are able to see through the deception here. Note that Robert starts out by mentioning that he gives money to Israel and would never push his beliefs upon Israel.
And yet he ends his comment with a full blown declaration directed to Jews about his Christian faith.

This strategy is offensive to Jews.

Robert[I learned to paste! Thanks for the encouragement SHYGUY. The rules of this forum say ;I believe; that we don't necessarily have to agree. I am not trying to make you believe,only G-d has that power! perhaps I want to learn![like pasting] As to offensive; I don't think Iv'e been 1/2 offensive as SHYGUY,[Jew on a stick-shamefull] but to those who hold offense to the truth, I cannot apologize for what I am unjustly accused of doing ! Shalom. I don't think from what Iv'e seen of Judaism ;you don't agree anymore with yourselves, than the Christians agree with themselves!People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!Also SHYGUY, did you gey my picture of the iceberg? You really don't see much sticking out of the surface? Do you?

Anonymous said...

Whether the method used is overt street proselytizing like Jews for Jesus does; witnessing through music, dance, theater, and interfaith dialoguing, publishing material, issuing “love baskets” and “gifts”; planting indigenous churches in foreign countries with the purpose of raising a generation of believers, or witnessing in a talkback like Robert, makes little difference.
It is all missionary activity.

Don't you wish thats all the islamists wanted to do, was proclaim your G-d is real, and not want to kill you instead; as well as us?

Anonymous said...

וְלֹא קָם נָבִיא עוֹד בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל כְּמֹשֶׁה אֲשֶׁר יְדָעוֹ יְ־הֹוָ־ה פָּנִים אֶל פָּנִים
- Deuteronomy 34:10

Could you translate this for me correctly; in the Name of the G-d of Israel? Thankyou, or I can translate through my Hebrew concordance but it would come out the same. I admit I need to understand Judaism , and thier true Translations, and Wisdom, and understanding! Without it , there is no true meaning![This I know!]I have found many mistranslations when the OLD Testament was altered from Hebrew!, and the New from hebrew , and Greek.

Anonymous said...

You will find a very decent translation of the Tanach's original Hebrew here.

To anyone who asks, no, I am not affiliated with Chabad. I am providing the link simply as a useful reference.

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

Don't you wish thats all the islamists wanted to do, was proclaim your G-d is real, and not want to kill you instead; as well as us?

1/10/09 16:18

---------------------------------

Adding the sin of making Jesus idol worshipers out of more Jews will only be to our nation's further detriment.

This is precisely the warning G-d gave us in the Sinai Covenant. For every cause, there is effect.

So while you may mean well, your are actually endangering our well being by promoting a false deity to the Jewish people - just like the folks who brought us Ba'al did.

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

I have found many mistranslations when the OLD Testament was altered from Hebrew!, and the New from hebrew , and Greek.

---------------------------------

More bad news for you, Robert. The original language of all the NT manuscripts was in Greek.

So, I suggest you brush up on your Greek. Afterward, brush up on your Hebrew. Then you will realize more fully how there is not connection between the truth of the Torah and the fabrication of the NT.

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

Robert, I take back my last suggestion.

Skip the Greek. Learn Tanach, even in English, from a decent translation, using classic Jewish commentaries, like RASHI, for clarification.

But first, you have to change your frame of mind. Pretend you are a Jew, living in the year -1 BCE. There is no Jesus around. No New Testament to be read - not even a single page. No Jew's ever heard of a "Jesus". All Jews know that the Creator of the world is not a rock, a planet, a person, or any other living creature, nor anything with any physical attributes whatsoever. All talk of a messiah is about a purely human descendant of the House of David.

Now read through the Tanach - from front cover to back - as the Jews of that ancient time and earlier ones had done.

There is no Jesus. There is no god messiah. There is not deity made of animal, vegetable or mineral.

Then you might catch on to what has become one of history's greatest deceptions.

I dare you. What have you got to lose?

Good luck! And remember: "the truth will set you free!"

yamit33 said...

Shy I enjoyed your efforts, Good show!

R. Joseph Albo in his work Sefer Ha-Ikarim stated the principle that:

The binding force of the Mosaic law until another shall have been divulged and proclaimed in as public a manner (before six hundred thousand men). No later prophet has, consequently, the right to abrogate the Mosaic dispensation.

and that: According to Albo, therefore, belief in the Messiah is only a "twig," unnecessary to the soundness of the trunk, and thus it is not an integral part of Judaism!

These two concepts destroy the foundations upon which Christianity rests.

Anonymous said...

More bad news for you, Robert. The original language of all the NT manuscripts was in Greek.

So, I suggest you brush up on your Greek. Afterward, brush up on your Hebrew. Then you will realize more fully how there is not connection between the truth of the Torah and the fabrication of the NT.

1/10/09 16:50

Yeshoshua spoke in Hebrew, and my learning is much like Israel's. Through exile , and sin, comes grace , and redemption.I shall learn until the new Covenant is finished, and we all will probably find; We all were wrong. Only G-d holds all the answers. I am a man stripped as 1AD; of my mind , body, and soul;. I surely didn't believe in any God. I was arogant,with every opportunity in the world in front of me for the taking; coming from an atehist father with the IQ of Einsteins, only believing in what science , and archeology, and technology could prove. It sure couldn't prove the G-d of Israel ever existed; just a bunch of prehistoric un-evovled bearded guys who thought the earth was flat, and Noah thought the earth flooded when only a dam broke between fresh and salt water. I have reasoned with him [very much as you], with beleiving in Yeshua, and him seeing the miracle of my life restored ; he gave credit to being weak and relying on a false presence of a Divine creator to make me part alive,to find a sense of security; but not whole. Then about a month ago; he was diagnosed with a confirmed brain anerysm. At his bedside I told him of how Yeshua whom before I believed not in,let alone any God; raised me from death and gave me peace , and life. He said: I suppose I am the doubting Thomas. I have to be 100% sure of what I beleive in is true. I asked him; If yeshua is real 100%;would you beleive? He said of course. I layed my hand on his head and prayed in the name of the Son of the G-d of Israel;Yeshua, and walked across the room. He opened his eyes and said; Your hand is still on my head. I said; it was the hand of G-d's Son. The next day ; the anerysm was completely gone. He beleives now! , but as I said ; do not beleive in miracles; for they pass away, as the Red Sea that opened closed. How do you prove that?or what miracles in this earth have happened, for they pass like a flower dies, but beleive in the G-d that brings those miracles who never dies, and you shall live eternal with Him.Only G-d can prove Himself to you, and It will be in His time, and not mine ; a faltered man unworthy to bring His word to you! Shalom

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

Yeshoshua spoke in Hebrew

---------------------------------

Actually, the “Hebrew” of the Torah was not widely spoken at the time. It was the language of the Jewish scholars, but not widely spoken by common Jewish folk.

Whether Jesus was a scholar or a drop-out is another topic of discussion. However, chances are he was schmoozing with his disciples in Aramaic, because as I already pointed out, Jesus generally attracted the dumb and the dimwitted, who general did not speak in Hebrew.

You're off to a bad start again.


===============================

I am a man stripped as 1AD; of my mind , body, and soul;. I surely didn't believe in any God.
-------------------------------

You misunderstand the point of my exercise. It's not about transporting the Robert you know back to -1 BCE. It's imagining yourself being an average Jew at the time, assuming a base knowledge and the gist of what Jews have handed down through the Torah and from father to son since the Exodus.

Put yourself in that historic frame of mind, remove your Christian preconceptions (remember, it's -1 BCE, there is no Christianity or anything like it throughout Jewish history at this point), and only then go through the Tanach.

Remember, no peeking into the future!

I'll let it pass this time that you once again avoided my disputation, this last time on the meaning of "new covenant" and the deliberately deceiving (or do you prefer "clumsy"?) mistranslation of Jeremiah in Hebrews.

Good luck on your assignment, though I doubt you'll take up the challenge.

Anonymous said...

"The secret things belong unto the Lord our God; but the things that are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."
- Deuteronomy 29:28
With exile , and sin always seems to be followed by redemption; You know ; like the Sefer Halkim; Making good from bad. I used to be a sculpter. When I fired my works of clay they were pasty and dull, when the fire had burned them and I took them from the Kiln, I could see my image in them; Like G-d does with those vessels he chooses for honor, and mercy. One day you will see G-d, and know the law whom he sent of Grace. I wonder if 600,000 have read this post alone yet, not to mention the world! I know 600,000 Jews at least are followers of Yeshua;son of man;Son of G-d;By the way; Was Adam a man? eternal.Shalom

Anonymous said...

In essence, that’s like saying Jesus did the right thing so you don’t have to do it anymore. Just plain silly.
That comment is just plain silly. The Covenant of the heart[Holy Spirit leads us to do right ,not expecting reward, but Love and grace makes us follow them because we want to. I knew an aalcoholic that said G-d forgive me every night before he went to bed after getting drunk. One he said; Lord ;I can't ask you to forgive me anymore because I fail rvry time. He said the Lord spoke to him and said: I do not remember you asking me. He never drank again.Love goes goes farther with obedience than whipping. We do the whipping quite well ourselves! Shalom

Anonymous said...

Robert, another rhetorical post? I suppose it's therapeutic for you.

But you misunderstood the relevance of the 60 myriad at Sinai. Today, there are over a billion believers in Islam. So by your reasoning, they're the truth? The cat's meow?

Even before the advent of Christianity, the Jewish nation was one of the smallest of peoples. still are, for that matter.

It's not about quantity.

Anonymous said...

Deuteronomy 4:40 Thou shalt keep therefore His statutes, and His commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy G-d giveth thee, for ever. (KJV)

Sounds like Matthew 4:17-19]

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

That comment is just plain silly.

---------------------------------

When you explain how the Tanach contains G-d's and His prophet's explicit statements that the Torah and its laws are forever, and then some ignorant Jew you adore says just the opposite, then perhaps you will be able to call my comment silly.

But you can't because you're stuck with those Tanach verses and you keep on avoiding responding with a logical rational answer.

You're stuck in the mud again, Robert.

Anonymous said...

I'm all for joint efforts against the Jihad onslaught against us in Dar al Harb. However, we are constantly encountering individual Christians and especially almost all evangelical ministries and organizations who cannot keep their grubby hands off of our people's neshamahs (souls).
Whom shall you fear? G-d or man? Can another man shake your faith and grab your soul if you are chosen of G-d?How can a Kingdom be divided against itself and stand!G-d is Sovereign. Do you think Isaac was chosen over Ishmael because of Abraham? G-d chose and protects the womans seed of man, as the woman is of man[Adam] that bears the Covenant of the G-d of the Son of man.[ DNA has proven the woman holds both DNA of man and woman] Not by right ; but by G-d's choice as He chose Jacob over Esau before they knew sin!He created a New man ;as Adam planted into the bloodline of the rightful heir of David.Greek mistranslation has twisted this scripture of geneology. I don't think Israel beleives in science or archeology or anything like that, because Tovia Singer said differently!and misrepresented the correct geneolgy of Joseph and Mary.

Anonymous said...

Robert the messianic, you cannot fullfil all the laws since you worship a deity of flesh and blood. Heck, that means you're not abiding by neither the Ten Commandments if you're Jewish, nor by the 7 Noachide Laws if you're a gentile.
You say you don't twist my words. You wrap yourself around your victims like a viper. [I worship Israel,s; G-d the Father]. Yeshua said[Matthew 12:50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father in Heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.You should change you name to; twisterpaster!

Anonymous said...

Over and over again in the Jewish scriptures, we are told to follow the Torah, follow the Torah, and follow the Torah.
Amen

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

Sounds like Matthew 4:17-19

---------------------------------

Nope:

17From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

18And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.

19And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."


BTW, verse 17 is false prophecy. No kingdom of heaven was forthcoming then and there. Therefore, Jesus was, by definition, a false prophet.

Tsk, tsk.

But what you meant to refer to is in Matthew 5 (good thing I'm here to point this out to you, right?):

" 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."


This was authentic Jewish teaching and the early Judeo-Christians conducted themselves as such. See, for example, Luke 24:53, Acts 2:44-46, Acts 6:7 and Acts 21:20.

So? What do I need Jesus for if he's just reminding me of what Jews already knew from the Torah? How unoriginal! What do you want us to do? Give Jesus a gold star for being a good boy and saying something correct for a change?

And how do you reconcile this with your gripes about the unbearable weight of the laws in your post dated 1/10/09 15:41?

Think hard before you reply. This is a setup, although I may not have a chance to continue replying until tomorrow. So don't think my break has anything to do with your stumping any of us. That would be more wishful thinking on your part.

Anonymous said...

You don't deceive me because you're far from the first of your brood to be encountered.
If I am part of a brood, that leaves you pretty low on the tree!

Anonymous said...

We are getting ready here for the holiest day of the year. I have no time to respond further and certainly no time to sully my mind with verses in Matthew or anything else from the NT.
Actually , Its the Holiest day of all time! I hope you didn't wear leather shoes?

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

You say you don't twist my words. You wrap yourself around your victims like a viper. [I worship Israel,s; G-d the Father]. Yeshua said[Matthew 12:50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father in Heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.You should change you name to; twisterpaster!

---------------------------------

Nope. I twisted nothing. For you believe that Jesus is a son of god, a deity.

You are trying to prove that to me through the NT, which I believe is a lot of garbage. That's known as circular reasoning and fails miserably.

Again, Torah laws are that there is no Shituf (partnership or division of responsibilities) or physical presence of G-d and that one who attributes such to the Creator is an Oved Avodah Zara.

You therefore go against the will of G-d in heaven by believing in your idolatrous dead friend.

I have twisted nothing. You have proved nothing - again and again.

Anonymous said...

Jewish Israel believes in calling a spade a spade. Any Jewish-Christian endeavor should be approached with honesty from both sides. Essentially, when a Jew says, “the evangelicals are Israel’s best friends” they should be equally comfortable saying, “the missionaries are our best friends”. If they can’t say this with comfort, then there is something wrong with the relationship I appreciate your honesty. You are correct. I only come to this forum in respect of your faith in the G-d of Israel, and was a disscussion of This issue. I have not disgreed with any other issue.Our political veiws are the same.I don't like Bible tracking Jehovah witnesses banging on my door! If you wish me to stop my posts I will!I don't believe in pushing my way in uninvited!But it must be unanimous!

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

I hope you didn't wear leather shoes?

---------------------------------

On Yom Kippur? No, of course not. Why do you ask? Did you?

Warning: this might be another setup. Think carefully before replying. Or perhaps you'll just run away from this, too.

Anonymous said...

You wonder whether Moses worshiped a bush. Go ahead and wonder. We've known all along that the answer is no. But you go ahead and make up whatever suits your fancy.
So you beleive G-d could speak through a bush , but not a man? Thats a bit short minded ShyGuy. I like this pasting! Thanks

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

If I am part of a brood, that leaves you pretty low on the tree!

---------------------------------

As I alluded to earlier, I'd rather be pretty low on the tree than a surrounding weed.

Anonymous said...

You do not get to first base.
I suppose you reap what you sow?or is it sew what you rip?

Anonymous said...

You do not pass go nor collect $200 dollars.
Could maybe you just lend it to me?{just kidding] How about 30 pieces of silver?You sound like you might need that if $200.00 is all youv'e got!

Anonymous said...

Nope. Square peg, round hole.
Are you talking about the crucifiction ? You are pretty quick to condemn what you do not understand!

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

So you beleive G-d could speak through a bush , but not a man? Thats a bit short minded ShyGuy. I like this pasting! Thanks

---------------------------------

You're welcome. Just one problem. The bush didn't speak. I'll even quote you Exodus 3:4 from the KJV, so that you can't excuse yourself this time that Christian translations are unreliable:

"And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."

Jesus had a regular pair of vocal chords, just like you and me. He also used them to cry when he was a baby, after soiling his diaper and needing to get his mommy's attention to be changed, if she didn't whiff the smell first.

Let's pretend you weren't thinking when you asked this one.

Like I said, gotta go. I hope someone else here plays with you during my absence.

Anonymous said...

Robert said...

I suppose you reap what you sow?or is it sew what you rip?

---------------------------------

You disappoint me, Robert. Aren't you supposed to turn the other cheek?

Anonymous said...

You disappoint me, Robert. Aren't you supposed to turn the other cheek?
I'm sorry, I only have two!, and I don't think it meant kicking the other two! Do you think I supported giving Gaza[land for peace]? Love your enemy, turn the other cheek? as men came falsely in Jesus's name and forced Israel into submission so your mothers and babies could be Killed? Wrong. You must stand and fight![Te cheeks have ben turned I turn my cheek to you, for I know you want the same as I; Peace, and the Restoration of the Temple. I'd supply the bulldozer to tear the dome down and rebuild the Temple!The G-d of Isaac and Jacob , and David shall reign eternal despite our tounge twisting disscussions on who the Messiah is. I will ask your forgiveness for responding to your words of [They are anger!].I am not your enemy. I would come over there and fight your enemy with you with my 2 fingers till I die defending your right to believe as you believe. Israel was given life and restored by G-d, but you cannot deny the basis of support Israel was given in infancy from the Bible Thumping Christian leaders who supported Israel militarily believing in Jesus, and the restoration of Israel! [By the way ; where did they go?]Richard Nixon's mother told him as a child ; G-d will use you one day to help Israel; Her words rang true when Israel was at it's last breath, and Nixon realizing he would seal his fate of impeachment if he gave weapons to Israel ;did it anyway. So G-d used Chrisians to bring Israel from dry bones, and formed the flesh, and now breathes life back into her, as He did upon the creation of man! Shalom my friend! Robert

Anonymous said...

And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."

Jesus had a regular pair of vocal chords, just like you and me. He also used them to cry when he was a baby, after soiling his diaper and needing to get his mommy's attention to be changed, if she didn't whiff the smell first.

Let's pretend you weren't thinking when you asked this one.
Thanks for the correct translation; That puts G-d in the midst of Yeshua!I dont think you have to be telling me your going to be absent! Have a good vacation!Get some rest. My two fingers are really sore anyway! Shalom ShyGuy. You must be married?

Anonymous said...

First, it's impossible for anyone seeing a divine Jesus to use this passage as a prediction of Jesus, sinceG-d openly says that this prophet will come from people.
From the seed of David; I beleive if I read correctly Yeshua was born a man, as he refefred to himself as; son of man. I think Adam was a man too! I guess you didn't know that, but then ; The Covenant is not complete, as all do not know Him. Maybe try Decaf?Shalom

Anonymous said...

Then one self-proclaimed false prophet comes along and preaches otherwise, and some folks believe him instead.

Deuteronomy 18:21,22] Yeshua's prophesy of the Destruction of the Temple came to pass. I guess you'll just have to wait for the rest, but not for long![Matthew 24:1:1,2], and Yeshua is not dead, but offerring all men life; right now, if we accept the Fathers word in Him[Israel]I believe it's called ;Redemption from exile. I think it's an Old term they used in the Torah!, and Micah 5:2; His birth, and Micah 5:3 His rejection, and return with the remnant,Micah 5:4; His works. It actually has a happy ending! You don't have smiley faces on this thread. They really help!

Anonymous said...

Morning here. I see we're in a loop. But it was good exercise. That's how I'll leave it.

Anonymous said...

Robert said:

"but as I said ; do not beleive in miracles; for they pass away, as the Red Sea that opened closed. How do you prove that?or what miracles in this earth have happened, for they pass like a flower dies, but beleive in the G-d that brings those miracles who never dies, and you shall live eternal with Him.Only G-d can prove Himself to you, and It will be in His time, and not mine ; a faltered man unworthy to bring His word to you! Shalom"

__________________________________

Miracles are over-rated. I'm not so excited about miracles and I wouldn't be so enthusiastic if I saw certain types of miracles. Pointless miracles, miracles that don't have an effect on the world for the good or for the worse--these types of miracles don't mean anything. Sometimes people interpret them as a sign, yet other times these miracles are completely ignored and don't have an effect on people and certainly not on the world. When people interpret these minor miracles as a sign, then the miracles can be used to lead people towards evil or good.

Miracles, both minor and big miracles, that are used for evil purposes--these miracles are a curse. Miracles that have a good effect on mankind and on the world--only these deserve the name "Miracle," because anything that is twisted towards the evil and interpreted falsely, is simply a product of man's corruption, that has nothing to do with G-d. However, miracles that are used to achieve good in the world are truly Miraculous and Holy, for they achieve Divine Purposes.

Anonymous said...

SHYGUY said Miracles, both minor and big miracles, that are used for evil purposes--these miracles are a curse. Miracles that have a good effect on mankind and on the world--only these deserve the name "Miracle," because anything that is twisted towards the evil and interpreted falsely, is simply a product of man's corruption, that has nothing to do with G-d. However, miracles that are used to achieve good in the world are truly Miraculous and Holy, for they achieve Divine Purposes.

2/10/09 14:55
Robert replies;I just woke up from agonizing pain, and exhaustion this evening,[16 hrs of sleep] and was reluctant to come back to this thread thinking I would hear more about dirty diapers and Jesus, but instead I get a reply that is very logical, and that we both agree on. I wait for the peace of Jerusalem that only the G-d of Israel may bring. Shalom

Anonymous said...

The Kingdom of Heaven is like a King which prepared a Marriage for His Son[Israel]. He sent forth His servants to call them that were selected to the wedding, and they would not come.Again , He sent forth other servants; saying, Tell them which are selected, Behold ,I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and my fattened cattle are killed, and all things ready; Come to the Wedding!but; they made light of the words, and went thier ways, one to his farm, the other to to his business: And the rest of the selected took His servants , and treated them with indignation!and killed them!. When the King heard this;He was outraged, and sent His armies, and destroyed the murderers, and burned thier city! Then the King said to His servants; The wedding is ready, but they who were selected were not worthy. Go therefore into the highways, and as many as you can find; Invite them to the wedding, so the servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all, as many as they could find; both bad and good; and the Wedding was filled with guests. When the King came in to see the guests, He saw a man who didn't have on a wedding garment, and the King said;Friend ; Why did you come here without a wedding garment, and the man was speechless. Then the King said; Bind this man and cast him into outer darkness;there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, For many are called, but few chosen!

Batya said...

Robert, I agree with Shy. Enough is enough.