tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7040911.post116876196496523305..comments2024-03-27T16:27:03.093+02:00Comments on Shiloh Musings: It was beautiful, it was thrilling, but is it dovening?Batyahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09402874037427009327noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7040911.post-1169133480936077042007-01-18T17:18:00.000+02:002007-01-18T17:18:00.000+02:00thanksI agree, but there are people who need the e...thanks<BR/>I agree, but there are people who need the external stimuli to reach their soul.Batyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11246929075812590204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7040911.post-1169126214078158482007-01-18T15:16:00.000+02:002007-01-18T15:16:00.000+02:00Very good post! Around here I find the same phenom...Very good post! Around here I find the same phenomenom. The difference between a large church or cathedral, where hundreds, if not thousands, file in and witness a huge choir, and such, is far less fulfilling to me than going to a small neighborhood church. Those in the small church are worshipping together, never mind the simplicity of the surroundings, and worship is the reason to be there, not to "see the sights". Too often, it seems to me, those going to the "show" church are there more for the "experience" than to worship. It can be exciting and beautiful, but it seems less edifying for the Spirit.benninghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12883327259794768568noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7040911.post-1168893855310646982007-01-15T22:44:00.000+02:002007-01-15T22:44:00.000+02:00thanks for the extra infoIt definitely was differe...thanks for the extra info<BR/><BR/>It definitely was different from our humble neighborhood shul.Batyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09402874037427009327noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7040911.post-1168892441913171582007-01-15T22:20:00.000+02:002007-01-15T22:20:00.000+02:00Since I was also present, let me say that a) it wa...Since I was also present, let me say that a) it was obvious to me that we were coming to a performance. Pesach Mor sponsored the Shabbat with 3 Chazzanim and a ten-man choir just for that purpose. I found it delightful and at times, mamash moving. It's not for every Shabbat but this was an "occasion". and b) after all, prayer in the Beit Hamikdash included instruments (trumpets, cymbals, lyres, etc.) and choral singing.<BR/><BR/>Sources -<BR/><BR/>See: "when the burnt offering began, the song of the Lord began," II Chron. xxix. 27) and at the wine-libation (Maimonides, "Yad," Kele ha-Mikdash, iii.). Two priests with silver trumpets gave the signal for the choir to begin (Tamid vii. 3).<BR/><BR/>And see:<BR/>Some [Levites] acted as doorkeepers, and others were engaged as either singers or musicians. Each one was assigned his post in the choir or orchestra, and was not permitted, under penalty, to assume the position of another. Hence the choristers could not be instrumentalists, nor vice versa. Five years' preparation, from the age of twenty-five to thirty, was required of every Levite; this preparation included instruction in singing. This limitation, in vogue at the Tabernacle, was, according to the Talmud, eliminated in the Temple service, where ability to sing, and not age, was the qualification of the Levite chorister(Ḥul. 24a). At the dedication of Solomon's Temple the sons of the Levites accompanied the choir in singing the praise of God (II Chron. v. 13). These young Levites "sweetened" the music with their soprano voices, but were not permitted to use instruments, and were restricted from entering the priests' hall in the Temple before the adult Levites had begun to sing. They were not allowed to stand on the same platform with the latter, but had to take up a position on the ground below ('Ar. 13b). The Temple choir was composed of no less than twelve adult singers besides the young assistants.<BR/><BR/>The question whether vocal or instrumental music formed the principal service is decided in favor of the choir (Suk. 50b; <BR/><BR/>and see:<BR/>Women took an active part in choir-singing. At the exodus from Egypt, Miriam formed a chorus composed of women, and sounded the praise of God to the accompaniment of drums and dance-music. Ezra mentions 200 singing men and singing women among those that returned from Babylon to Jerusalem(Ezra ii. 65); but for the Temple service only the sons of Asaph are counted (ib. iii. 10; compare Neh. vii. 67-xi. 22). The women choristers, however, were heard in dirges in honor of the dead. "All the singing men and the singing women spake of Josiah in their lamentations" (II Chron. xxxv. 25). R. Meïr says those were the wives of the Levites (Pirḳe R. El. xvii.).<BR/><BR/>and here's a final reference:<BR/><BR/>King David wrote fifteen Songs of Ascent, corresponding to the future fifteen steps in the Temple, where the greatest choir and orchestra ever assembled in the history of the world sang and played. The tribe of Levi trained vigorously till age thirty before taking their place among the multitude of musicians who performed there. People came to the Temple with great expectations and high emotions, completely focused on drawing close to God and the music which took place there was an integral part of the spiritual experience.YMedadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14333122797414935958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7040911.post-1168851118183024702007-01-15T10:51:00.000+02:002007-01-15T10:51:00.000+02:00Thanks, I agree.One strange thing was, most probab...Thanks, I agree.<BR/>One strange thing was, most probably due to the Carlebach influence on me, I found myself "dancing around" while listening. I must have stood most of the time. It was hard to sit quietly.Batyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11246929075812590204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7040911.post-1168847518097811562007-01-15T09:51:00.000+02:002007-01-15T09:51:00.000+02:00I basically agree that most of today's Chazanim gi...I basically agree that most of today's <I>Chazanim</I> give a "performance" which is usually more suited to a concert than a <I>Tefilla</I>. However, I see no reason why a good Chazan shouldn't also be a good Baal Tefilla and Shliach Tzibbur, and both uplift the congregation * encourage their participation. I find that a Carlebach-style davening usually fits this bill -- there's lots of singing, & lots of participation, both singing & dancing. Of course, Modzitzer and other Chassidic groups do this too... :))yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08523302947845887661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7040911.post-1168811541578716632007-01-14T23:52:00.000+02:002007-01-14T23:52:00.000+02:00Well, maybe we should double-date sometime!Well, maybe we should double-date sometime!Batyahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11246929075812590204noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7040911.post-1168778240686574912007-01-14T14:37:00.000+02:002007-01-14T14:37:00.000+02:00Israpop and I heard a hazzanut concert a few month...Israpop and I heard a hazzanut concert a few months ago and we loved it. I definitely think it's the way to go. Much nicer than when you try to daven. Not the same at all.Risa Tzoharhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05012097234847651866noreply@blogger.com